Paladins mark "fix" a plazebo?

[LFK]

I love how many people assume/insist that the affected creature will take the 8 damage round after round after round as though it had no other option.

 

[ZetaStriker]

Yeah, for the short term, Divine Challenge from a ranged Paladin does work pretty well. But the build itself can't function as a Striker, it'll just occasionally get that extra damage boost that is still very 'Defender-ish' in nature.

 

[Serin_Marst]

Further information about the fighter's Combat Challenge in the Shadowfell preview thread:
This makes the tactic of maintaining his challenge at range even more of an inferior option for the paladin. The synergy between a fighter and a paladin works even better when both of them are in melee with a single target:

1. They can flank the target.
2. The paladin gets to use his melee powers.
3. The opponent still takes Divine Challenge damage for attacking the fighter, or takes a basic attack from the fighter for attacking the paladin.
4. The paladin is in a position to take damage which he can heal with his own healing surges instead of lumping all the damage on the fighter (the paladin only has so many daily uses of Lay on Hands, after all).

If I'm reading that right, not quite, but it's still another nail in the coffin of this tactic.

Note the "A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time." As we've heard that "marked" is a keyword, I read that as, only the Paladin or the fighter can have the target marked, not both. But the whole "kiting" scenario is still in pretty bad shape.

Here's how I see it: The whole scenaio is predicated on the paladin being able to outrun whatever he's got marked with only a single move action. I'm, frankly, skeptical that he'd even be able to maintain separation for more than a single round.

Let's say the paladin has a move of 5 and the target has a move of 6(pretty standard numbers from what we've seen so far), in order to mark the target, the paladin has to be within 5 squares, so a separation of 4 squares as the monster has to be in the fifth. Paladin marks the target tosses a hammer at it and RUNS 7 squares away (granted, as a DM, i'd just declare that "disengaging" and drop the mark anyway). So now 11 squares of separation. Monster shifts away from the fighter(no attack because he can't mark it) and runs after the paladin, covering 9 squares total, leaving them only 2 squares apart. Same deal next round and the monster is adjacent to the paladin without ever triggering the mark or drawing an AoO from the fighter to lock him down. Now he either has to run drawing an AoO or shift and just get trivially caught again, or man up and fight like he should have been in the first place.

Difficult terain and other party members may stretch it out a little, but ultimately, the result is the same. Paladin gets caught and only has a couple basic ranged attacks with no bonus damage to show for it.

 

[Kordeth]

If I'm reading that right, not quite, but it's still another nail in the coffin of this tactic.

Note the "A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time." As we've heard that "marked" is a keyword, I read that as, only the Paladin or the fighter can have the target marked, not both. But the whole "kiting" scenario is still in pretty bad shape.

According to that excerpt, the fighter doesn't have to have the target marked to get the free attack--he gets to smack any adjacent foe who makes an attack against somebody else.

 

[Exen Trik]

So the paladin, a defender, can only take exploit his marking power by acting like a striker? I don't really see the problem here, even with multiclassing into a striker role the benefit is limited, and a striker that dips into paladin can only do this to one enemy per encounter.

I like the way it works, personally. It seems like a powerful combo, but I expect there will be better ones that don't involve subverting it's classes role.

 

[Serin_Marst]

Oops, yeah, miss read that.

Of course, according the the other thread, the movement lockdown ability may not be a given for the fighter, either. So a move/charge combo to catch the paladin in one round may be possible as well.

Either way, some one trying this only really ends up buying maybe a round using this tactic and doesn't gain much of anything in the way of damage output over just engaging in melee.

 

[The Little Raven]

It seems like a powerful combo, but I expect there will be better ones that don't involve subverting it's classes role.

It seems like a total waste to me, since 95% of the paladin's powers are either melee weapon or implement, which means they're useless with a bow.

 

[malraux]

It seems like a total waste to me, since 95% of the paladin's powers are either melee weapon or implement, which means they're useless with a bow.

Its also worth pointing out that the fighter can't mark the big bad thing either. In the excerpt, that wouldn't affect things too much, but I'd suspect lots of other fighter power trigger off of marking.

 

[Incenjucar]

It seems like a total waste to me, since 95% of the paladin's powers are either melee weapon or implement, which means they're useless with a bow.

The problem, if any, is if you have a ranged character who has multiclassed.

 

[Exen Trik]

It seems like a total waste to me, since 95% of the paladin's powers are either melee weapon or implement, which means they're useless with a bow.

Well, in a drag out battle with all other resources spent, it could prove an effective last ditch effort for a paladin. But yeah I was referring to a paladin/striker multiclass.

There's another scenario where a paladin can use this method to great advantage: fighting a striker. Especially one with great range and flight, just get close enough to mark once and if it tries to keep too much distance and snipe your allies, make it pay for it. In this case, moving far away as possible from your target and drawing it away from your allies may be the best form of defending.