Paladins mark "fix" a plazebo?

[Lacyon]

If DG=d8, the paladin is roughly equal to the ranger, does more damage against hard target but less against soft ones.

This is what makes the most sense, then.

Notice that the DDXP fighter does an average of 13.5 damage at +6 versus AC (assuming there's a legal cleave target), compared to the DDXP ranger's 14 damage at +6 to-hit (assuming the target's been "quarried").

I've noted elsewhere that strikers almost certainly aren't supposed to be some kind of damage-dealing monstrosities. They get to deal all their damage to a single target, and they get powers and abilities that let them choose their targets, and pay for it by not getting all the boosts that other classes get (surges, buffs, AoE effects, etc.)

 

[SlagMortar]

This attack has 95% accuracy for 13.3 avg dmg.

Assuming the ranger hits 95% of the time with his at-will attacks is probably not a good assumption. The divine challenge damage is best when the target is difficult to hit, because the damage does not require a to hit roll. Assuming the range hits 95% of the time skews the analysis in favor of the ranger.

 

[malraux]

Assuming the ranger hits 95% of the time with his at-will attacks is probably not a good assumption. The divine challenge damage is best when the target is difficult to hit, because the damage does not require a to hit roll. Assuming the range hits 95% of the time skews the analysis in favor of the ranger.

But the target being difficult to hit throws out the whole premiss of the divine challenge damage always happening. The only way to make it work is for the fighter to use his OA to end the movement of the opponent. But if we're only talking about high AC creatures, then the OA is likely to miss, so the opponent can engage the paladin easily.

 

[Ludanto]

But the target being difficult to hit throws out the whole premiss of the divine challenge damage always happening. The only way to make it work is for the fighter to use his OA to end the movement of the opponent. But if we're only talking about high AC creatures, then the OA is likely to miss, so the opponent can engage the paladin easily.

And if the monster Shifts and Charges, he can avoid an OA altogether.

 

[Kordeth]

But the target being difficult to hit throws out the whole premiss of the divine challenge damage always happening. The only way to make it work is for the fighter to use his OA to end the movement of the opponent. But if we're only talking about high AC creatures, then the OA is likely to miss, so the opponent can engage the paladin easily.

The OA isn't even an issue unless the fighter has a reach weapon: Shift (move action) + Charge the paladin (standard action) = no OA for the fighter (the immediate reaction attack from Combat Challenge is not an OA and therefore doesn't abort the monster's movement).

D'oh, ninja'd. Curse you, Ludanto!

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

And again, if the monster moves and gets stopped by the Fighter's OA, it can then exchange its standard action for another move action, which the fighter cannot stop since he already used his OA.

The monster doesn't take any radiant damage since he didn't attack anybody other than the paladin - he didn't attack anyone at all trying to get to him.

The Paladin has not gained any distance since he can only make a single move action and must attack the creature with his standard action. Sure, the monster loses its attack that round, but to me this makes the most sense for the power - it really wants to reach that paladin.

The fighter can pursue the creature and repeat the process, but the first time that fighter misses its OA, that creature will probably double move, reaching the paladin. The Fighter will have to double move to keep up and now you end up with a nice melee where the creature can try to chew on the Paladin while the fighter flanks it and they beat on the creature, or the Paladin can try to disengage to start the cycle again and risk the creatures own OA.

This all sounds like good tactics to me, and is easily controlled by a DM by not making most fights be a solo fight, or using a creature that has its own powers that can do other things that might not make this such a nice neat scenario.

Heh, I just suddenly had an image of Han Solo running into a squad of stormtroopers, turning to run, and drawing them all after him. Of course this power only works on one creature.

 

[FireLance]

By the way, as posted by Stephen Radney-MacFarland (Associate Developer, RPG R&D, Wizards of the Coast) in another thread:

You can take thrown (simple) weapons with the paladin, but it's never the best option, since your weapon powers are almost always melee, and your ranged powers are almost always implement powers. If you use this "throw build" you'll end up doing basic attacks with ranged (meaning you'll have to build in a higher Dex than you normally would) and trying not tanking your Cha (since you want to get the most damage you can out of your divine challenge ability) even then I don't think it’ll work very well. You are better off, using your challenge, marking foes, and keeping them on you, and then attacking with powers that grant allies bonuses to AC, grant temporary hit points, or that move your opponent away from you or your allies (making your target work to come get you or take your radiant damage, all of which is fine defending if you ask me).

It appears that damage from Divine Challenge depends on your Charisma, possibly 5 + Charisma bonus. So, the D&D XP paladin got 8 damage because of his 16 Charisma. So, it's probably not a flat 1d8.

 

[FireLance]

Further information about the fighter's Combat Challenge in the Shadowfell preview thread:

Every time you attack an enemy, whether that attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target. The mark lasts until the end of your next turn. While a target is marked, it takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls if its attack doesn't include you as a target. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
In addition whenever an enemy that is adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack that does not include you, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as an immediate interrupt.

This makes the tactic of maintaining his challenge at range even more of an inferior option for the paladin. The synergy between a fighter and a paladin works even better when both of them are in melee with a single target:

1. They can flank the target.
2. The paladin gets to use his melee powers.
3. The opponent still takes Divine Challenge damage for attacking the fighter, or takes a basic attack from the fighter for attacking the paladin.
4. The paladin is in a position to take damage which he can heal with his own healing surges instead of lumping all the damage on the fighter (the paladin only has so many daily uses of Lay on Hands, after all).

 

[ZetaStriker]

Not to mention that everyone's math is wrong simply by virtue of that fact that they assume they'll be doing Divine Challenge damage every turn. It's far more likely that Divine Challenge will simply do the Defender's job of drawing in enemies, as it's been pointed out that there are many ways around a fighter. The Paladin will get pushed into melee with the creature within the first two rounds. I see the odds of actually dealing Divine Challenge damage drops to about 1-7%, only coming into play either when another party member is critically wounded, the creature still have a large back of HP to fall back upon and finds pressing a weaker party member to be a better option, or when the Paladin and Fighter are both in melee and it faces a threat from either, no matter who it attacks.

 

[Sojorn]

Further information about the fighter's Combat Challenge in the Shadowfell preview thread:
This makes the tactic of maintaining his challenge at range even more of an inferior option for the paladin. The synergy between a fighter and a paladin works even better when both of them are in melee with a single target:

1. They can flank the target.
2. The paladin gets to use his melee powers.
3. The opponent still takes Divine Challenge damage for attacking the fighter, or takes a basic attack from the fighter for attacking the paladin.
4. The paladin is in a position to take damage which he can heal with his own healing surges instead of lumping all the damage on the fighter (the paladin only has so many daily uses of Lay on Hands, after all).

Certainly makes the fighter in front, paladin tossing challenge from the back a nice opener though.

Rake them over the coals and then trap them between the fighter and the paladin.

It blows my mind whenever I realize we're talking about 1st level characters here...