Paladins with detect evil vs. fiends with mindshielding

[Artoomis]

...My point is that detect evil does not detect evil simply because someone has the evil subtype. It only detects the alignment of the individual, not the subtype. So if the Succubus was LG, she would not detect as evil.

Ah, but, maybe she WOULD detect as evil (even if good) because of : "Evil Subtype: ...Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment."

You gotta love it - detecting as BOTH good and evil. Having this happen a couple of times will really throw the players for a loop. Now the Paladin cannot fully rely on Detect Evil. Doesn't that just SUCK!

This is really stuff for the RBDMs among us!

 

[Cam Banks]

Nowhere does it mention "lingering auras." Basically, you can tell if a creature or object is evil. That's it. This spell in no way allows you to verify that an evil being "just walked through the room."

Sure it does. Keep right on reading that SRD entry.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[reveal]

Sure it does. Keep right on reading that SRD entry.

Cheers,
Cam

Ya, I saw that later.

 

[Artoomis]

So the succubus doesn't even leave behind a lingering aura of evil once she leaves? Interesting.

Cheers,
Cam

Maybe so (that is, an aura lingers) - and if so, this could be even MORE confusing to the Paladin as the lingering aura would stick around - looking like some really, really big evil (an overwhelming aura) had been in the area.

I think the lingering aura might be present because it's not an alignment effect tied directly to the Succubus - it's just left behind in the general area. If the Paladin concentrates continuously (one would presume that the concentration would be obvious to anyone, if not the reason for it, since this is a Spell-Like Ability) AND if the Succubus stopped moving for a minute or so, then the Paladin could know that she was the source.

Since that would void out the intent of the ring, maybe it's not a good idea to allow it, but I think it's supportable under the RAW.

 

[reveal]

Maybe so (that is, an aura lingers) - and if so, this could be even MORE confusing to the Paladin as the lingering aura would stick around - looking like some really, really big evil (an overwhelming aura) had been in the area.

I think the lingering aura might be present because it's not an alignment effect tied directly to the Succubus - it's just left behind in the general area. If the Paladin concentrates continuously (one would presume that the concentration would be obvious to anyone, if not the reason for it, since this is a Spell-Like Ability) AND if the Succubus stopped moving for a minute or so, then the Paladin could know that she was the source.

Since that would void out the intent of the ring, maybe it's not a good idea to allow it, but I think it's supportable under the RAW.

It's already established that the ring would not let the paladin see that the Succubus was evil because it hides the evil aura. I don't think the rules support the paladin not being able to see the aura around her but to be able to see some of her lingering aura simply because she moves from table to table. To the paladin, she puts out no aura whatsoever because of the ring.

EDIT: But this does bring up an interesting question: If a creature with a ring of mind shield leaves a room, does their aura (good or evil) linger in the room they just left?

 

[Cheiromancer]

Evil creatures don't leave a trail of lingering evil. They leave a lingering aura if they are destroyed, but only at the site of their destruction.

Lingering Aura: An evil aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a creature or magic item).

Of course, you can modify the question slightly; If you kill the ring-bearing succubus, would there be a source of lingering evil at the site of her demise? I would think there would, since the ring would stop functioning. (Don't have a rules citation for that last bit; just that dead creatures are objects, and objects can't wear rings.)

 

[Belbarid]

"Evil Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. "

Obviously, from this, Detect Evil, being an Effect, will detect an evil outsider regardless of actual alignment. To me, if actual alignment is irrelevant, than it's presence or absence is equally irrelevant. That's a personal opinion though.

To put it more rationally, if an effect will affect an evil outsider as if the outsider has an evil alignment, then, IMHO, the effect in question is "looking" at the alignment *and* the subtype. Laying this example out a little more logically (I'm a programmer- it happens...)
Subtype=Shapeshifter Alignment=CG: Does not detect as Evil
Subtype=Shapeshifter Alignment=CE: Detects as Evil
Subtype=Evil Outsider Alignment=LG: Detects as Evil
Subtype=Shapeshifter Alignment=CE: Detects as Evil

Since we appear to be looking at a Boolean OR statement (Subtype=Evil or Alignment=Evil), then if the first parameter is true (Subtype=Evil), the state of the second parameter is irrelevant, including whether or not the value of the second parameter can be determined. The second parameter (Alignment=Evil) is only necessary when the first is False- which is the majority of the time. The converse(?) is true as well. Subtype is irrelevant if the alignment is Evil, but becomes necessary if the alignment is nonevil.

Would Mindshielding supress the creatures type? I tend to think not, as that is not a part of the creature's aura, although I could be worng on that part.

 

[Artoomis]

Evil creatures don't leave a trail of lingering evil. They leave a lingering aura if they are destroyed, but only at the site of their destruction.

Of course, you can modify the question slightly; If you kill the ring-bearing succubus, would there be a source of lingering evil at the site of her demise? I would think there would, since the ring would stop functioning. (Don't have a rules citation for that last bit; just that dead creatures are objects, and objects can't wear rings.)

Quite right - my mistake. Good catch, thanks.