Paladins with detect evil vs. fiends with mindshielding

[Bastoche]

"Unnamed" spell?? The spell is indeed named, and it's Nondetection. Unless, of course, the DMG or errata lists another spell, which I did not check.

It does not really matter, anyway; the description of the ring makes it clear that alignments cannot be detected. There is no reason to go back to the underlying spell descriptions as that is NOT what the item does anyway.

I do not see any analysis of the Undetectable Alignment spell as being value-added here. Am I missing something?

I think you're not missing anything. However, since the spell "detect thoughts", "discern lies" exists, I'll believe this is errata stuff they missed. The spells to create the item should be detect thoughts", "discern lies" and "undetectable alignment". This is no RAW, it's my opinion. (I thought it was RAW but I was shown to be wrong...).

 

[Bastoche]

I still say no aura would show up. Detect evil depends on alignment, not on subtype. Alignment is surpressed by the ring.

But detect evil does not only detect "evil". For example, a LG tiefling would show up as faint evil if detect evil was cast. However, know alignment would show LG.

 

[reveal]

For example, a LG tiefling would show up as faint evil if detect evil was cast.

Do you have any proof of this? I prefer fact rather than conjecture.

And what if someone played a PC Tiefling? Is there anything in the FR setting that states you have the "evil" subtype?

 

[darthkilmor]

Nondetection
Abjuration
Level: Rgr 4, Sor/Wiz 3, Trickery 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature or object touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)
The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level.
If cast on a creature, nondetection wards the creature’s gear as well as the creature itself.

And

Mind Shielding
This ring is usually of fine workmanship and wrought from heavy gold. The wearer is continually immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to magically discern her alignment.
Faint aburation; CL 3rd; Forge Ring, nondetection; Price 8,000 gp.

Its a non-issue, the paladin sees nothing evil(from the succubus).

 

[AuraSeer]

But detect evil does not only detect "evil". For example, a LG tiefling would show up as faint evil if detect evil was cast. However, know alignment would show LG.

You're mistaken; the race does not have the [Evil] subtype. A tiefling does not show up on detect evil unless he has an evil alignment or is a cleric of an evil deity.

 

[Artoomis]

Hmmm....

"Originally Posted by SRD
Evil Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. "

But this may not be an "effect" (this seems to be a poorly defined D&D term) based on alignment and, even if it were, the ring blocks the alignment "effect," so no detection takes place.

If you like, you could extend this and say an evil outsider permanently "tainted." If it's alignment shifts to "good," it would detect as BOTH good and evil. I'm not sure that this is what was intended, but maybe so.

In any case, no detection here as it is blocked by the ring.

 

[Bastoche]

Do you have any proof of this? I prefer fact rather than conjecture.

And what if someone played a PC Tiefling? Is there anything in the FR setting that states you have the "evil" subtype?

See post #12 in the thread. However, a tiefling may not have the evil outsider descriptor but rather just the outsider descriptor. Then you could build any example that would work... if it's possible... Blurry that stuff is. You could for example imagine a cambion with a helm of opposite alignment (it's drawn from 2E, I think it doesn't exists anymore... what a shame).

 

[reveal]

See post #12 in the thread. However, a tiefling may not have the evil outsider descriptor but rather just the outsider descriptor. Then you could build any example that would work... if it's possible... Blurry that stuff is. You could for example imagine a cambion with a helm of opposite alignment (it's drawn from 2E, I think it doesn't exists anymore... what a shame).

Tiefling's are Outsider (Native). That's what I was questioning. When people post to the rules forum and try to back up their arguments, I expect them post correct examples because, after all, we're all rules lawyers in this forum.

 

[Artoomis]

Tiefling's are Outsider (Native). That's what I was questioning. When people post to the rules forum and try to back up their arguments, I expect them post correct examples because, after all, we're all rules lawyers in this forum.

Okay, fine, then use Succubus as the example. For goodness sakes, you know what he meant and Succubus was right here in the thread, why not just point out the error and substitute in Succubus for the example, instead of beating this dead horse?

A "good" Succubus remains an "evil outsider" and would, I guess, detect as both good and evil.

 

[reveal]

Okay, fine, then use Succubus as the example. For goodness sakes, you know what he meant and Succubus was right here in the thread, why not just point out the error and substitute in Succubus for the example, instead of beating this dead horse?

A "good" Succubus remains an "evil outsider" and would, I guess, detect as both good and evil.

That's not the point. The point he was making was that a being with an Evil subtype would show up with the ring on, which you agreed would not happened. He used the Tiefling as an example, which was not correct. I can't guess at his intentions because I don't know him. Maybe he really did mean to use the Tiefling for reasons that I didn't understand.

...detect as both good and evil.

My point is that detect evil does not detect evil simply because someone has the evil subtype. It only detects the alignment of the individual, not the subtype. So if the Succubus was LG, she would not detect as evil.