Paladins with detect evil vs. fiends with mindshielding

[Vurt]

A paladin walks into a bar, and detects evil. The serving wench is actually a succubus with a ring of mindshielding. Does the spell pick her up? (As opposed to the paladin picking her up, which is a whole, different ballgame!)

I'm finding this quandry subtly complicated, but don't want to lead the debate with my own personal interpretation. So please help a fellow DM sort this out by posting your own take on this.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Cam Banks]

A paladin walks into a bar, and detects evil. The serving wench is actually a succubus with a ring of mindshielding. Does the spell pick her up? (As opposed to the paladin picking her up, which is a whole, different ballgame!)

I think what happens is that the paladin detects evil, but can't pinpoint the source of it. The succubus cannot be identified as the source of the evil, although if she were to stand in the middle of a room with nobody else around, the paladin might start getting the hint indirectly.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[reveal]

I think what happens is that the paladin detects evil, but can't pinpoint the source of it. The succubus cannot be identified as the source of the evil, although if she were to stand in the middle of a room with nobody else around, the paladin might start getting the hint indirectly.

Cheers,
Cam

I disagree. Detect evil allows you to see the presence of an evil aura. That aura is given off by a creature based upon their alignment. A ring of mind shielding makes the wearer immune to attempts to discern its alignment. Ergo, the paladin would not be able to detect whether or not the succubus was evil.

 

[Bastoche]

Undetectable Alignment

Abjuration
Level: Brd 1, Clr 2, Pal 2Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature or object Duration: 24 hoursSaving Throw: Will negates (object) Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

An undetectable alignment spell conceals the alignment of an object or a creature from all forms of divination.

The paladin does not detect anything unless there's another evil creature in the room. In either case, the werer of the ring of mind sheilding is "invisible" to anyone casting detect evil.

 

[reveal]

The paladin does not detect anything unless there's another evil creature in the room. In either case, the werer of the ring of mind sheilding is "invisible" to anyone casting detect evil.

While I agree with your conclusion, undetectable alignment has nothing to do with this ring. The spell cast into a ring of mind shielding is nondetection.

 

[Cam Banks]

So the succubus doesn't even leave behind a lingering aura of evil once she leaves? Interesting.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[reveal]

So the succubus doesn't even leave behind a lingering aura of evil once she leaves? Interesting.

Cheers,
Cam

You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

1st Round
Presence or absence of evil.

2nd Round
Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present.

If you are of good alignment, and the strongest evil aura’s power is overwhelming (see below), and the HD or level of the aura’s source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends.

3rd Round
The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.

Aura Power
An evil aura’s power depends on the type of evil creature or object that you’re detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two.

Nowhere does it mention "lingering auras." Basically, you can tell if a creature or object is evil. That's it. This spell in no way allows you to verify that an evil being "just walked through the room."

 

[Artoomis]

Let's look at this one step at a time, straight from the rules (well, the SRD):

"Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell."

"Detect Evil...You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject....

Lingering Aura: An evil aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a creature or magic item). If detect evil is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power...

Animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil, and as such this spell does not detect them.

Each round, you can turn to detect evil in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it."

"Mind Shielding: This ring is usually of fine workmanship and wrought from heavy gold. The wearer is continually immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to magically discern her alignment.
Faint abjuration; CL 3rd; Forge Ring, nondetection; Price 8,000 gp."

Okay, so definitely no detection of alignment. If the Succubus had only recently put the ring on (1d6 x 10 minutes or less), a lingering dim aura would be detected, but with no way to link that to the Succubus.

All this is assuming that you agree that detecting "evil aura" is essentially a subset of detecting alignment, which I think is indeed the case, especially as the related Detect Spells are:

Detect Chaos
Detect Good
Detect Law

I suppose you could make the case that this is not actually detecting the alignment, but only on aspect of the alignment, but that seems to me to really be splitting hairs.

 

[Bastoche]

While I agree with your conclusion, undetectable alignment has nothing to do with this ring. The spell cast into a ring of mind shielding is nondetection.

Here:

Mind Shielding: This ring is usually of fine workmanship and wrought from heavy gold. The wearer is continually immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to magically discern her alignment.

Faint aburation; CL 3rd; Forge Ring, nondetection; Price 8,000 gp.

To create such item, you need to cast the spell "undetectable alignment". In the DMG, I thought it specify it's like having a "undetecable alignment" spell. I'm amazed it's not stated that way in the SRD since they mention the other 2 spells.

 

[Corsair]

A paladin walks into a bar, and detects evil. The serving wench is actually a succubus with a ring of mindshielding. Does the spell pick her up? (As opposed to the paladin picking her up, which is a whole, different ballgame!)

I'm finding this quandry subtly complicated, but don't want to lead the debate with my own personal interpretation. So please help a fellow DM sort this out by posting your own take on this.

Cheers,
Vurt

I'm confused why this should be complicated.

Paladin attempts to magically detect alignment.

Ring prevents that.

Paladin detects nothing.

Simple.