Party AC difference

[eamon]

And also I don´t think it is a TAX. This is nonsense. You don´t have to pay it to have fun. Only if your DM demands it which is one kind of playstyle.

That argument essentially boils down to saying that balance is irrelevant except if your DM demands it. Sure, if you don't care about combat effectiveness then it's fine for some feats to be massively more powerful than almost all others - but why bother with this thread at all then?

Feats + powers are almost all combat oriented. Sure, there are exceptions, but clearly the game is oriented around providing a broad diversity of options to make distinct yet balanced combat characters. The rules aren't very good at plotting open-ended story-based play. A quick skim will show that the rules don't bother trying; much much more text is spent on activities where some amount of balance is required - that being combat first and foremost and skills a distant second.

So, you could argue that there's nothing wrong with some builds having fewer options that others, or that the so-called tax options aren't actually all that good (i.e. there's a real choice). But if you're arguing that it just doesn't matter since you can refuse it despite the options being clearly superior is to ignore a factor that crucially pervasive throughout D&D 4e.

The game isn't balanced by chance. If you don't care about balance, then there's probably a game out there that better suited to your play-style than D&D 4e (and that's not meant as an insult to such a play-style: I definitely agree that balance isn't everything - but in a 4e rules forum, well - what do you expect?)

 

[KarinsDad]

the average AC for level 1 is 16.

Ok, I'll only address this point. When one makes this false assumption to begin with, then their entire starting point is offset.


PHB (assuming 18 AC stat primary, 16 secondary):

16: Cleric
17: Fighter two handed weapon
19: Fighter with heavy shield
18: Paladin two handed weapon
20: Paladin with heavy shield
16: Melee Ranger
17: Ranged Ranger
16: Rogue
17: Warlock (concealment which is nearly every round)
17: Warlord
14: Wizard

Mean: 17
Median: 17
Mode: 17

Even putting in an average AC for the classes that vary:

16: Cleric
18: Fighter
19: Paladin
16.5: Ranger
16: Rogue
17: Warlock (concealment)
17: Warlord
14: Wizard

Mean: 16.69
Median: 16.75
Mode: 16, 17

Except for Wizard, the average AC is not 16. The LOWEST AC is 16.

If one looks at other splat books overall, the ACs (and hit points, etc.) for most of those classes are actually a bit higher than most of the PHB ones.

 

[keterys]

Warlord's very often only have AC 16, due to using two-handed (especially Reach) weapons. Many melee Rangers also have AC 15 or 14. Many wizards have an AC of 15.

Excluding feats, of course. Just considering Wis secondary melee rangers (Pit Fighter and all that) and Staff wizards.

I think it would be much better if the range was only 4 by build (then another 2 bases on circumstance, power bonuses, etc), but I don't feel that's particularly viable in 4e without discussing house rules - which have their own forum and several threads on this very topic. I do think that cloth -> leather being +1 would be good, chainmail being equivalent to Scale's AC and that unbasing AC from Dex/Int would probably be fine at this point.

 

[Nifft]

Apparently you haven't read it carefully enough.

Combat Superiority cannot prevent a foe from taking a wide detour around a Fighter.

Ah, I see. You're moving the goalposts.

In that case: yes it does, because this whole time the foe was Dazed! -- now you have to go read F.A.T.A.L.! Ha ha ha!

So again, I ask you the exact same question:

Where exactly are the low level powers and abilities that prevent the enemy from moving past the front rank?

You know one, since you manged to type out "Combat Superiority" above. It doesn't apply all the time, but in the case of "preventing the enemy from moving past" -- that's exactly what it does, and it does that very well in my experience. There are other ways for even a Striker to prevent movement, but if you only want one, that's your man.

If the DM plays the Fighter as more sticky than he actually is by making dumb decisions for the NPCs, then yes it would be difficult to get past the Fighter.

If your Wizard's player is making dumb tactical decisions, no Fighter can protect him.

Send the player to this forum, we'll be happy to help him out.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Flipguarder]

Nfft, come on, he never moved the goal post, you moved it then expected him to follow you.

He's always been talking about a situation in which there is enough area to get AROUND a fighter, which happens quite frequently. If a DM is utilizing the new diagonal rule effectively, fighters become less useful in large areas.

 

[KarinsDad]

Nfft, come on, he never moved the goal post, you moved it then expected him to follow you.

Have you ever known Nifft to be swayed by a logical argument? Ever? I just talk with him cause it's fun.

 

[Dan'L]

Where exactly are the low level powers and abilities that prevent the enemy from moving past the front rank?

Well, right at level one we have:

Icy Terrain (Wizard Encounter)
Sleep (Wizard Daily)

-Dan'L

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, right at level one we have:
Icy Terrain (Wizard Encounter)
Sleep (Wizard Daily)

Talking Defender here Dan.

 

[Victim]

Well, I think there's significant middle ground between Defenders being useless, and between no one else being in danger. We can reasonably expect the wizard to be in danger some of the time.

It can definitely be worth spending the feat to improve defenses - especially if your wizard has aggressive close powers. OTOH, there are plenty of other feats now. While the PHB only wizard might drop a feat on leather without a second thought, feats like Enlarge Spell are also attractive.

So depending on how much risk your character seems to face, you can prioritize your feats. Since KD's wizard gets attacked a lot, maybe he'll go with Leather or Unarmed Defense, a staff (and maybe those staff defense things), Shield, etc to stay alive. OTOH, Nifft's wizard might feel safe and thus go for Enlarge Spell, an Orb, etc.

Our cleric is especially hated by the undead we fight and thus is strongly pressured to pick up all the defensive abilities he can. As a ranged, WIS based cleric, he'll qualify for Plate at Epic. That's not exactly normal, but it might be useful in his case.

 

[Nifft]

Seriously, dude, your personal insults aside: this here is goalpost moving.

Uh huh. Where exactly are the low level powers and abilities that prevent the enemy from moving past the front rank?

Page 76, Combat Superiority.

Apparently you haven't read it carefully enough.

Combat Superiority cannot prevent a foe from taking a wide detour around a Fighter. Combat Superiority cannot prevent a foe from shifting away from a Fighter and then charging a back rank PC. Combat Superiority does not prevent a foe from teleporting away from the Fighter. Combat Superiority cannot prevent an NPC from ignoring the Fighter completely.

You wanted a low-level power that can prevent movement, and you got one that works from level 1.

Concede the point and let's move on.

-- N