Savage Pathfinder Pathfinder Adventure Paths Are Coming To Savage Worlds!

Whizbang Dustyboots · Nov 30, 2020

Haffrung said:
I’m not sure it’s a matter of PF1 to PF2 adoption so much as Pathfinder just relentlessly declining in popularity since 5E came out. Activity on Paizo’s forums is way down, adventure paths get far fewer reviews than they did 6 years ago, very little fan content is being released on Youtube, etc.

This isn’t new with the release of PF2. Look at the number of reviews and comments for War for the Crown vs Jade Regent. Any RPG relies on a strong influx of new players to counteract the relentless attrition in the hobby, and Pathfinder hasn’t been winning that battle for years.

I think Pathfinder 2 was likely, at least in part, itself an attempt to stem this tide.

Haffrung · Nov 30, 2020

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
I think Pathfinder 2 was likely, at least in part, itself an attempt to stem this tide.

Agreed.

Ace · Nov 30, 2020

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
I think Pathfinder 2 was likely, at least in part, itself an attempt to stem this tide.

Almost certainly.

Anecdote not evidence but a great many groups in my area switched to 5E which does everything we want D&D to do with much less rules load.

Simpler rules, coherent, well supported just an all together different and IMO better play experience than 3x/Pathfinder was. Last guy offering to run Pathfinder 1E got a resounding "meh" from the players, me included. Don't get me wrong 3X -PF1 was a huge improvement over 2e in many ways but 5E is simply stellar and its very hard to compete with that degree of quality.

PF2 is not bad at all but so many feats, its like Oprah Winfeat "A feat for you, a feat for you and a feat for you." and while mechanically not that hard to grok I think its just too full of stuff for a lot of people tastes so when it comes to choosing as most people do, its 5E all the way.

This plus the lockdowns have hit Paizo in the pocketbook so licensing out well loved adventure paths and even new ones is an obvious choice.

Retreater · Dec 1, 2020

Doctor Futurity said:
I'd be interested in sources on this. I mean....it could make sense (I feel PF2E worked well to bring back lapsed players like myself, but I don't know if it convinced players who never got tired of 1E to switch).

PF1 was still in the lead on Fantasy Grounds

Fantasy Grounds Stats Show Massive Pandemic Bump

Fantasy Grounds has shared its usage stats going back over the last year. The recent pandemic has shown a massive boost of 150% in virtual tabletop game sessions! Here's a look at the game system distribution. "MoreCore" and "CoreRPG" are generic ruleset modules which can be used for many...

www.enworld.org

PF2 games are less than half of the ones on Roll20

Roll20 RPG Usage Stats: Growth Everywhere During Pandemic!

Roll20 has posted its latest Industry Report, revealing that the first quarter of 2020 shows growth for almost every game on its platform during the pandemic. D&D, of course, remains by far the most popular (up from 50% to 53% after a dip last year), with Call of Cthulhu and Pathfinder coming in...

www.enworld.org

PF2 releases on Roll20 have been ... delayed, flawed, and incomplete (the first AP isn't available yet). The Compendium doesn't work with the Character Sheet (which is really bad to begin with).

Legendary Games has a version of their latest adventure path for PF2 but admitted that it was the least selling one (compared to 5e and PF1). Now they are developing their own PF1-compatible system, Corefinder.

Frog God Games isn't touching PF2, though all their products are released for 5e, PF1, and their in-house OSR system (Swords & Wizardry).

And as someone who ran PF2 for a year, I can say 3rd party resources for that system have been like looking for a needle in a haystack. EN Publishing did some but they are retiring that line. Legendary Games has done some, but likely they will be focusing on Corefinder.

While Organized Play is likely suffering during the pandemic, a look at the official Paizo site lists very few online Society games with PF2. But you can find Starfinder games.

paizo.com - Organized Play / Events

I mean, I'm glad you're enjoying it. I don't think it's a bad system for what it's trying to do. But it's pretty much DOA at this point.

Whizbang Dustyboots · Dec 1, 2020

Retreater said:
Frog God Games isn't touching PF2, though all their products are released for 5e, PF1, and their in-house OSR system (Swords & Wizardry).

Swords & Wizardry was one of the dominant OSR retroclones. I'd be curious to see numbers on how OSR books are doing. Although they've always been niche, if influential, I wonder how much of their audience shifted over to 5E or DCC. (Obviously, there are going to be hardcore grognards who will be running OD&D until their dying breath.)

Stacie GmrGrl · Dec 1, 2020

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
Swords & Wizardry was one of the dominant OSR retroclones. I'd be curious to see numbers on how OSR books are doing. Although they've always been niche, if influential, I wonder how much of their audience shifted over to 5E or DCC. (Obviously, there are going to be hardcore grognards who will be running OD&D until their dying breath.)

5e is what finally got me to turn to the OSR. In so many ways the direction 5e has gone is, to me, a giant middle finger to both 3.x and 4e gamers. It is its own OSR retroclone of sorts, minus the good DM tools that define the good OSR books. It is also it's own storygame attempt of D&D, including a lot of storygame prompts and doing it badly. But my biggest issue with 5e is the pedestal the game has been put on. I despise it.

I'd have been all over Pathfinder if Paizo hadn't flooded us with so much product that made the game so overwhelming. That's one of the things that makes Savage Worlds appealing; PEG doesn't flood us with too much.

Jadeite · Dec 1, 2020

You can probably add Kobold Press to the list of publishers not supporting PF2.
The 5e Southlands KS (which I regrettably can't back), has, in less than 24 hours, nearly reached as much as the PF1 version during its whole campaign.

Retreater · Dec 1, 2020

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
Swords & Wizardry was one of the dominant OSR retroclones. I'd be curious to see numbers on how OSR books are doing. Although they've always been niche, if influential, I wonder how much of their audience shifted over to 5E or DCC. (Obviously, there are going to be hardcore grognards who will be running OD&D until their dying breath.)

It could be just a personal anecdote, but I feel like the OSR is growing pretty substantially. I wouldn't be surprised if the movement overtakes PF1 as an alternative version of D&D - though it's not going to come close to overtaking 5e. Old School Essentials just finished a massive Kickstarter.
In my own groups, I am playing in an OSE game and DMing both Swords & Wizardry and 5e. Presently, I don't have the mental bandwidth to try to a) learn a new system, b) convert it to a VTT, and c) teach it to new players virtually. OSR games (for players in my age group) are a familiar, casual feel for stressful times. Game theory, in depth crunch, and 600+ page rules tomes can wait until life gets back to normal.
Even though I've played Savage Worlds, it definitely checks all the boxes for "I don't have the mental bandwidth." Around a year ago I ran a game for our old college friends' Gamer Weekend. I had to constantly look to other players. "How many wounds would that be, after subtracting the armor piercing from the toughness, dividing that total by four?" and "You're attacking a tank with a laser sword - which gets past all armor and toughness - so how many wounds does the tank have?" It was exhausting, even in person without the restraints of VTT, fiddling with connections in Zoom, etc.

wilcoxon · Dec 1, 2020

marv said:
This confuses me. I’m assuming this was agreed to by Paizo out of some mutual love/passion and not for significant financial reasons.
No offense intended to Savage Worlds (I’ve never played it so have no opinion) but if Paizo wants to get the most $ out of their IP then more 5E conversions (like Kingmaker) would be needed, rather then converting to some other minor game system. And history has shown that more 5E generates more PF (it’s definitely not a zero sum game).
But I’ve converted a lot of PF1 and PF2 content to 5E and it is very easy to do (especially if you use ToB, CC, and ToB2 from Kobold Press to help you reskin monsters) so I’m not complaining. And in such a small market as TTRPGs, a good passion project is a beautiful thing. Might get me to check out Savage Worlds (but likely not because I am fine with both 5E and PF2 systems).

Not necessarily. Releasing Paizo APs for 5e has two significant downsides:

It potentially boosts 5e sales (WotC is their closest competitor so probably not good)
The 5e market is over-saturated making it hard to be noticed (though Paizo is widely enough known they would have a leg up there) and, when the market crashes (as will happen like it did in the 3.x/OGL 3rd-party days), it would be better to not be part of it (a LOT of small publishers went under because of that - Paizo is probably big enough not to go under but would still be significantly impacted).

dbm · Dec 1, 2020

Retreater said:
restraints of VTT

Just for info, the implementation of SWADE in Fantasy Grounds is amazing. It calculates raises, wounds, soaks, ammo consumption from high rate of fire and has specific statuses tacked on to the powers that deliver them (e.g. a specific ‘quickened’ status attached to the Slow / Speed power). It really lifts a chunk of the mechanical load off the GM and players.
Edited for typos