Patrick Stewart in new Star Trek show

Say, Picard is pulled back into active duty as an admiral-captain.

I'm guessing the Borg will be involved in some form or fashion.
Picard can be given the field rank of Commodore - somebody who can tell individual Captains what to do.

One season ended with Picard as a member of the Borg. Obviously he got away and separated himself.
Perhaps the Borg are looking for him, to further understand how he did that?

Philosophically, they could examine the relationships (theoretical, 'best', and actual) between the individual, a group, and the whole of society.
 

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The final scene for Picard will be him lieing on bed after a nice evening meal spent with a bajoran family he and Data helped out a bit. Suddenly memories distorted by his Irumodic Syndrome are coming back, how he made the fatal decision that destroyed the Enterprise E and killed many of its crew, the first big flare of the syndrome. He believes he's seeing Data entering his room, and he says: "I think I was not happy like this in many years. But I didn't deserve this. Not after what I did. All those dead people. They trusted me... What have I done, Data?" Then Data pulls out a mek'leth, and stabs Picard in his artificial heart. It's not Data - it's Lore, avenging the many years he spend deactivated in Maddox' Lab...
It took me far too long to get what this was teasing...

Honestly, a Lore’s revenge story would be cool. But not going to ever happen as Bret Spiner has aged hard, and can’t pull off the ageless android anymore. Not without a heavy dose of still super expensive de-aging CGI.

I'm guessing the Borg will be involved in some form or fashion.
We’ve had (at least) four TV episodes and one movie dealing with Picard’s relationship with the Borg. That horse has been flogged. We don’t bee an entire series (or season) dealing with them.
Honestly, I’d be happy if the just say the Borg were dealt a crippling blow at the end of Voyager and collapsed as a power. They’ve been done.
 

/snip


TNG also had the original creator involved.

Yup, and it was some of the worst drivel ever to hit the small screen. People remember the hay days of TNG, but, tend to forget that all the really memorable episodes happened AFTER Roddenberry no longer was involved.

Meanwhile, with Discovery we have a team that seems allergic to trying to capture the feel of Starfleet and Star Trek, and whose first idea was to tell a war story. Who were quick to take the easy and lazy route of drama via interpersonal conflict.
I'm not sure I want that done to the decades following Voyager. It'd be a little too simple to just break things for quick drama.

Meh, I liked Discovery. Excellent stories, cool characters, well laid out. Sure, there were some duds there, I get that. First season wobbles and all that. But, I'll stack season 1 of Discovery against Season 1 of TNG any day of the week.

The best thing they ever did with Star Trek was eject the Roddenberryism that there could never be any conflict between the main characters.
 

Yup, and it was some of the worst drivel ever to hit the small screen. People remember the hay days of TNG, but, tend to forget that all the really memorable episodes happened AFTER Roddenberry no longer was involved.
Funny thing, Roddenberry was replaced as chief story editor halfway through season one. Remember how the show magically got better then? Oh wait, no, it continued to suck for another season and a half.
Oh, and Roddenberry was also replaced for season 3 of the Original Series. Y'know, the worst season.
Weird... it's almost like he wasn't the sole reason TNG was bad...

Still, Roddenberry had a vision, which worked. He knew the setting and could write the series bible. Once good writers came on board they were able to build quality off his groundwork.
So far the creative minds behind Discovery have not shown to me they have the best grasp of Star Trek lore, while also heavily relying on callbacks and references to TOS.

Meh, I liked Discovery. Excellent stories, cool characters, well laid out. Sure, there were some duds there, I get that. First season wobbles and all that. But, I'll stack season 1 of Discovery against Season 1 of TNG any day of the week.
"First season wobbles" is a B.S. excuse.

It's a free pass just handed to Discovery to wave away and deflect any criticism, which I've never seen applied to any other TV show. It only comes up because TNG was bad at first and got better, and DS9 got better, and that's apparently enough to make a rock solid pattern. Despite Voyager never getting better, The Animated Series never getting better, TOS getting worse, and Enterprise getting much worse before finally getting better in its fourth season.
(Watching DS9 right now with my son. The pilot was excellent and the following two episodes were damned good. A very fine set-up for the series.)


Discovery was terrible.

The wholly unlikable main character's character arc pretty much took her in a giant circle so she ended the season pretty much where she started. It took her thirteen episodes to learn something she should have learned in the pilot, just so the audience could be showing something about Starfleet and the Federation that has pretty much been a given for every other series. It was like spending an entire season to explore "the Prime Directive" or questioning the desire to explore.

We spent the entire season being told Burnham had spent too much time with Vulcans and was too cold and logical, but she spent the entire season doing horribly irrational and emotional things which inevitably made things worse, and regularly imperilling other members of the crew.
The second most important character was set-up as an interesting, flawed captain that was traumatised by war and potentially given a redemption arc that mirrored that of Starfleet. But all that was jettisoned because instead he turned out to be cartoonishly Evil.
We get to see a Starfleet that happily torturing an innocent living creature to the bring of death to gain a temporary strategic benefit. And then partnering with a war criminal who is pretty much mega-Hitler in order to commit genocide. Crossing lines that wouldn't be acceptable in the current day, let alone in a utopian future.

Meanwhile, the entire series spends its time telling us what's happening rather than showing us. There's a conflict between Starfleet's mission to explore and the need to win the war! But we never see them forced to pass up an opportunity for science.
And Starfleet is losing the war! But we never really see that or get a sense of the losses. Then it's winning the war, but we only see a single victory. Then it's losing again the next episode. Oh, then they've lost for good... except suddenly the Klingons have agreed to stop fighting and somehow decide to just give back all their seized territory. For reasons.

And the whole thing is wrapped up in the worst pseudoscience imaginable that felt like the show's scientific advisor was a crystal healing guru.
"It's a spore drive. It's powered by literal fairy dust that despite being macroscopic and visible to the naked eye is really the basis of energy and the source of all life in the entire multiverse. Thankfully we have the giant space targigrade to help navigate the magical mushroom network that crosses space/time." Which I only wish was hyperbole.

Plus, the show was entirely reliant on shock and cheap plot twists to move it forward. No less than four sudden "shock" deaths. Two of which said shock deaths leading to the victim being eaten. And two heel turns as crew members reveal themselves to be evil all along. Paired with horror movie level gore in one episode, a couple :):):):)s in another, and Klingon nip in a third. Because, apparently, Star Trek has less censorship than this site.

All the while being shallow and empty, not even pretending to glance in the direction of allegory or examination of the modern world. There was no lessons on racism or the Vietnam war. No examination of the War on Terror or how paranoia can corrupt. Hell, even Star Trek VI with its questioning of "what happens if the Berlin Wall falls... in space" and worries of peace had more depth.
There's plot thread introduced and forgotten regularly. Black badges! Then gone. What badges. And Vulcan terrorists. Then bye-bye.
But none of that matter because the moment the season ended the show tripped over itself hitting the big red "reset" button that ensured that nothing that happened in the series mattered at all. And then it ran headlong towards cheap, blatant nostalgia by forcing the Enterprise into the series.

And despite all that, the craziest thing in the show was Sarek suddenly having inexplicable ninja moves so he could kung-fu battle Burnham in his mind.

The best thing they ever did with Star Trek was eject the Roddenberryism that there could never be any conflict between the main characters.
Yes, because the lack of conflict between main characters was terrible in Next Generation...

It wasn't that there wasn't to be any conflict at all. It was that the characters would resolve their problems by talking to each other like adults. That they would not descend into childish bickering and cheap grudges for the sake of lazy drama.
And Discovery showed exactly why that was a good idea with cheap conflict and forced tension as characters sniped at each other for no real reason. It was like watching character interactions written by student screenwriters in a remedial film school class. It felt like the standard secret based forced drama I expect from bad CW teen dramas.


Another fun rule Roddenberry had was avoiding too many references to TOS. There was Bones in the pilot and the plague in the second episode (The Naked Now) but after that he tried hard to not reference the original series and Enterprise. Because he wanted to move forward and not just look backward. He even pushed to avoid having too many familiar aliens show up, leading to Bolians being used in place of Andorians.
Meanwhile Discovery had Harry Mudd, the Mirror Universe, a Klingon disguised as a human, a tribble on Lorca's desk, a Gorn skeleton in Lorca's weapon room, Sarek, references to Spock, the Enterprise , "the needs of the many...", etc. It was a freakin' "greatest hits" of Star Trek elements. But, given that it was created by the guy who wrote Into Darkness and basically retold Wrath of Khan, this wholesale lack of original thought shouldn't be a surprise...
 


Funny thing, Roddenberry was replaced as chief story editor halfway through season one. Remember how the show magically got better then? Oh wait, no, it continued to suck for another season and a half.
Oh, and Roddenberry was also replaced for season 3 of the Original Series. Y'know, the worst season.
Weird... it's almost like he wasn't the sole reason TNG was bad...

Still, Roddenberry had a vision, which worked. He knew the setting and could write the series bible. Once good writers came on board they were able to build quality off his groundwork.
So far the creative minds behind Discovery have not shown to me they have the best grasp of Star Trek lore, while also heavily relying on callbacks and references to TOS.


"First season wobbles" is a B.S. excuse.

It's a free pass just handed to Discovery to wave away and deflect any criticism, which I've never seen applied to any other TV show. It only comes up because TNG was bad at first and got better, and DS9 got better, and that's apparently enough to make a rock solid pattern. Despite Voyager never getting better, The Animated Series never getting better, TOS getting worse, and Enterprise getting much worse before finally getting better in its fourth season.
(Watching DS9 right now with my son. The pilot was excellent and the following two episodes were damned good. A very fine set-up for the series.)

I dunno. DS9 got a LOT better later on and the first couple of seasons were pretty bad. I recently rewatched everything, and I'd say that's pretty true of all Trek. Voyager started bad, got quite a bit better, then died in the last two seasons. Enterprise started very bad, but, ended in the last season quite well (ignoring the series finale episode).

And, outside of Trek, you can look at Arrowverse TV which improved considerably. Supernatural got much better after a shaky start which then tailspun into what we have now. Sigh.

But, first season wobbles aren't really anything new to any series.

/snip

Ok, fair enough. you don't like the show. I get that. But, I did like it, pretty much for every reason you don't. Cool stories, lots of conflict, and a Trek show that actually shows WHY people hate Klingons. Meh, different strokes.
 

I dunno. DS9 got a LOT better later on and the first couple of seasons were pretty bad. I recently rewatched everything, and I'd say that's pretty true of all Trek. Voyager started bad, got quite a bit better, then died in the last two seasons. Enterprise started very bad, but, ended in the last season quite well (ignoring the series finale episode).
DS9's uptick was Ira Behr being promoted to showrunning and executive producer with season 3.
Enterprise getting better in season 4 can be attributed to Manny Coto coming aboard as head of the series along with Mike Sussman.
Heck, even the archetypal example, The Next Generation, is often attributed to Michael Piller coming aboard on season 3.

Neither was just the result of the series moving out of its first season. More time didn't magically make the shows better. It was better writers coming aboard and a showrunner who was able to take charge and make changes.

Meanwhile, the executive producer of Discovery has not changed. It's still co-creator, Alex Kurtzman. And now he's also the main showrunner and doesn't have another executive producer there, as Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J. Berg left.
While Kurtzman is free to do his own thing rather than having to run with another writer's work... the second half of Discovery's first season wasn't much less problematic.
And as a creative figure, Kurtzman is mixed. He's producted Scorpion and Hawaii Five-O for TV, plus Amazing Spider-man 2. He wrote Transformers and Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. Plus Star Trek Into Darkness. Most recently he wrote and directed the recent Mummy film.

His hit:miss ratio is not good. I don't have a lot of faith he'll improve just because the season is a higher number. That has as much bearing on the actual quality of the show as odd/even numeration has on the movies.

And, outside of Trek, you can look at Arrowverse TV which improved considerably.
I think Arrow started strong and got better as it moved into more comic territory and beyond a vigilante with a hood. The second season was great. But the last couple years grew weak.
Meanwhile, Flash started strong and then got problematic as it relied far, far too much on its formula. Season three wasn't good and season 4 was often painful.
Supergirl definitely took a bit to find its groove and improved partway through season 1.
Legends of Tomorrow has definitely gotten better. This is a good example of a show needing to find its voice and work with the strength of its cast.

Supernatural got much better after a shaky start which then tailspun into what we have now. Sigh.
Supernatural got better yes, but that could be attributed as much to the metaplot building to a climax. That can loosely related to getting beyond the first season, as they needed to lay the groundwork and didn't want to go "all in" just to be cancelled.
It dropped in quality after the original creator left with season 5, when the series "ended". (Even then, season one wasn't "bad". The worst episodes of that stretch were probably in season 3.)
Then they brought someone else in, which led to up and down quality, as the showrunners changed three or four times. So, again, less about the "numeration" and more the stories and people working on the series.

But, first season wobbles aren't really anything new to any series.
True...
Excluding all those shows whose first seasons are their best.

Six Feet Under
Glee
Friends
Lost
Sports Night
Veronica Mars
The O.C.
Heroes
30 Rock

Or even Kurtzman's own Sleepy Hollow

There's no shortage of shows that peak hard in their first season and then spend the rest of their run trying to recapture that magic.

Discovery *could* end up like Buffy, Alias ,or Arrow and turn out a great second season.
Or it could build and grow like DS9, TNG, Babylon 5, or Supernatural for a satisfying show that improves as it goes.

Or lacking the vision of Bryan Fuller, Kurtzman does what he does best and just retells stories that have already been done and pushes hard on the nostalgia button, failing to even capture the "WTF what is going to happen next???" wonder of the first season. Especially while being pulled in multiple directions and trying to get multiple shows going at once.


"First season wobbles" are something you can evaluate after the fact. They're not a predictive element. And they're not an "cure all" excuse for criticism. Saying Discovery will get better because other Trek shows did is as reasonable and sound as saying "the second season will be better, because even Trek stuff is always better than odd." You'll have as good of odds referencing what astrological sign the show is being filmed under.
 

But, [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION], you have to realize we're coming from very different directions. I LIKED Discovery. I thought the story telling was strong, the characters were very interesting and it was a fresh take on the Trek universe. Sure, they dropped lots of Easter Eggs. Well, that's a bit of a no brainer, first Trek in, what, 15 years after Enterprise was ... less than universally loved. :D

And, let's not forget that they are looking for a larger, much larger audience than just North America. They aren't gearing the show for people like you or me who've been Trek fans for far too many years. They are trying to capture a broader, and much more mixed audience since they are shopping the show out on both the CBS stream and Netflix. Which means that for the first time ever, not only is Trek trying to compete in North America, it's trying to compete world wide.

Which is going to have some impact on the writing and how the show plays out.

Did they do all sorts of bad things to canon? Sure. I get that. For canon junkies, this show must seem like a real slap in the face. For me, who couldn't care less about canon, it's very, very cool. I'm really looking forward to season 2. All the nitpicky stuff that bugs the crap out of you just washes away for me. I just simply don't care.
 

Did they do all sorts of bad things to canon? Sure. I get that. For canon junkies, this show must seem like a real slap in the face. For me, who couldn't care less about canon, it's very, very cool. I'm really looking forward to season 2. All the nitpicky stuff that bugs the crap out of you just washes away for me. I just simply don't care.
My last complaint thread mentions canon zero times. It also skips over complaints over the uniforms and Klingon makeup.
 

To be fair about "examining the issues", screen time plays a BIG role here. I mean, every other Trek got at least 24 episodes in it's first season. Disco got 15. Losing 10 hours of screen time does make for a LOT of cutting. Granted, that means we lost about 9 hours of people discussing in comfortable chairs around a long table, :D but, hey, we can't have everything. But, again, first season and they needed to make a splash. I'm pretty willing to forgive a lot in a first season.
 

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