D&D General Payn's Ponderings: The Fighter's identity; or, what's left after the combat pillar?

[Guest 7034872]

^ ^ A post so strong, it made the thread silent for a day. I agree with payn, Quickleaf: that was awesome. Conferring a boon while on watch is, I think, inspired. That whole notion of the Fighter improving morale, courage, and ease of mind in the party as a whole--I love that.

Another idea some others here played with strikes me as attractive, but it might be too cumbersome: having a page. Fanaelialae suggested followers, but people expressed worries about number and complexity of play, right? Well, in Chaucerian tales, knights do have pages and those pages aren't just commoners wielding home-made clubs. So what if the D&D Fighter had a page? One follower, in effect, not bunches, and that page would not be a full-on PC-strength character, but would be able to do something meaningful once the arrows started flying (and even when they weren't).

Probably, this wouldn't work at L1. At L1, the Fighter herself/himself isn't that tough and is still just getting started on the HP slope. But at L3 or later I could see something like this, no? And isn't it at later levels that the Fighter really starts to lag?

What do folks think?

 

[payn]

^ ^ A post so strong it made the thread silent for a day. I agree with payn, Quickleaf: that was awesome. Conferring a boon while on watch is, I think, inspired. That whole notion of the Fighter improving morale, courage, and ease of mind in the party as a whole--I love that.

Another idea some others here played with strikes me as attractive, but it might be too cumbersome: having a page. Fanaelialae suggested followers, but people expressed worries about number and complexity of play, right? Well, in Chaucerian tales, knights do have pages and those pages aren't just commoners wielding home-made clubs. So what if the D&D Fighter had a page? One follower, in effect, not bunches, and that page would not be a full-on PC-strength character, but would be able to do something meaningful once the arrows started flying (and even when they weren't).

Probably, this wouldn't work at L1. At L1, the Fighter herself/himself isn't that tough and is still just getting started on the HP slope. But at L3 or later I could see something like this, no? And isn't it at later levels that the Fighter really starts to lag?

What do folks think?

Building off of my Fighter legacy idea, you could easily swap the follower(s) in or out depending on campaign and table playstyle.

 

[Quickleaf]

@South by Southwest Hahah, well I don't know about that. But thanks!

Anyhow, I was thinking more about idenitty @payn ... One of the tendencies I've noticed is that online "solutions" (to the issue of the fighter not having enough ways to engage in exploration and social aspects of the game) tend to start from pulling mechanistic levers. Rather than engaging with broader narrative goals.

Arguably, that's the problem that the designers originally slipped into when working on the 5e fighter and its subclasses. Paraphrasing Mike Mearls here, but they were so fixated on having a "simple" and a "more complex" option that they failed to breath creative/narrative life into the subclasses.

In my view, the problem is magnified when focusing on exploration & social pillars, as the mechanical complexity for those is really thin in 5e. So it's an even tighter design space to work within than the combat pillar.

Once we're at the mechanical level of design, the conversation is about "how much" or "do we change this wording" or "do we dial this up or down?" It's about relatively microscopic design moves.

But the conversation moves away from the big picture questions: "what is the core concept here? what fantasy are we trying to evoke? what's the story of this class?"

When speaking of identity, it's those bigger questions that I think we need to answer.

 

[jgsugden]

Fighter. Stop, and think about the title. it isn't someone who ranges, of uses magic, or sneaks - it is someone that fights. The core of the class is fight. Based on the name alone, I would expect this class to be the one most centrally tied to fighting.

However, is that all they can do? In my experience, the 'gap' between how well fighters excel in the social and exploration pillars and other classes is a perception gap, not really a play gap.

A great fighter probably needs a good constitution, and either a good dexterity or strength. In a point buy, as they only need 2 attributes, that gives them extra points that they can put into another ability score. Most classes benefit more from focuses on three or more attributes. A monk needs con, dex and wis, for example. Others, like sorcerers and wizards might be able to focus on two - but they will have poor AC if they do not also focus on dexterity. There are other classes that can excel with a focus on two abilities for their combat capability (rogue, druid), but fighter is amongst the most effective with a 2 ability focus. Further, they get more ASIs than other classes, and get them earlier, allowing them to select feats that support other pillars we well, or to raise those attributes tied to other pillars.

Additionally, for strength based fighters that focus on strength and constitution, there is a grand total of ONE skill that capitalizes upon the attributes they have increased. That leaves them at least 3 more skills they can add tied to whatever other attribute(s) they elect to raise. Their class skills include that 1 strength skill, 1 dexterity skill, 4 wisdom skills, 1 intelligence skill and 1 charisma skill. It is not hard for them to pull together the skills to be a scout, a negotiator or a sage.

In my experience, fighters have no trouble excelling in social or exploration pillars when they wish to do so.

 

[payn]

Fighter. Stop, and think about the title. it isn't someone who ranges, of uses magic, or sneaks - it is someone that fights. The core of the class is fight. Based on the name alone, I would expect this class to be the one most centrally tied to fighting.

However, is that all they can do? In my experience, the 'gap' between how well fighters excel in the social and exploration pillars and other classes is a perception gap, not really a play gap.

A great fighter probably needs a good constitution, and either a good dexterity or strength. In a point buy, as they only need 2 attributes, that gives them extra points that they can put into another ability score. Most classes benefit more from focuses on three or more attributes. A monk needs con, dex and wis, for example. Others, like sorcerers and wizards might be able to focus on two - but they will have poor AC if they do not also focus on dexterity. There are other classes that can excel with a focus on two abilities for their combat capability (rogue, druid), but fighter is amongst the most effective with a 2 ability focus. Further, they get more ASIs than other classes, and get them earlier, allowing them to select feats that support other pillars we well, or to raise those attributes tied to other pillars.

Additionally, for strength based fighters that focus on strength and constitution, there is a grand total of ONE skill that capitalizes upon the attributes they have increased. That leaves them at least 3 more skills they can add tied to whatever other attribute(s) they elect to raise. Their class skills include that 1 strength skill, 1 dexterity skill, 4 wisdom skills, 1 intelligence skill and 1 charisma skill. It is not hard for them to pull together the skills to be a scout, a negotiator or a sage.

In my experience, fighters have no trouble excelling in social or exploration pillars when they wish to do so.

My issue is that rangers, pallys, even barbs can fight just as well, and also get cool class stuff beyond combat. I'm glad fighters work out for you with stats alone, but I think they could use some more stuff.

 

[Guest 7034872]

My issue is that rangers, pallys, even barbs can fight just as well, and also get cool class stuff beyond combat. I'm glad fighters work out for you with stats alone, but I think they could use some more stuff.

I agree, and I also like Quickleaf's point that "This class needs more stuff," if treated purely in terms of mechanics and without any overarching concept of what defines that class, decays into bells and whistles divorced from what so-and-so's character is supposed to be all about.

Like you said at the start of the thread, it's a tough nut to crack.

 

[Smackpixi]

I find a lot of these ideas too fiddly or adding ability/feats that add complexity. Not bad, I just would want something very simple.

So give fighter two level one options. Commanding Presence (the Terminator option) or Wandering Fortitude (Rambo option)

Commanding Presence

- Option to replace pick 2 or 3 charisma skills with strength. Strength has a charm all its own. A lot of the fame ideas above get at this, just suggest making it mechanically simple.

Or, since that kinda steals the charisma caster’s or traditional face’s thunder, maybe..

- Option to confer advantage on party member charisma based checks when standing within 5ft of them. Seems a bit much though, maybe add prof bonus or strength mod. Could make for nice good cop bad cop roleplay dynamics.

Wandering Fortitude

Same ideas as above except for replace with pick 2 or 3 from Wisdom skills or give nearby wisdom boost. Or maybe Passive Perception is strength based for detecting creatures (fighter can sense threats but not traps).

The wisdom replacement or boost applies because being strong means you’re aware of more options or better at it than the less endowed. The perception thing cause fighter hyper aware, pretty sure others suggested something along these line but maybe not as simple.

Just trying to avoid adding complications while giving fighter a window into social/exploration pillars Using existing mechanics.

 

[Quickleaf]

I agree, and I also like Quickleaf's point that "This class needs more stuff," if treated purely in terms of mechanics and without any overarching concept of what defines that class, decays into bells and whistles divorced from what so-and-so's character is supposed to be all about.

Like you said at the start of the thread, it's a tough nut to crack.

My perspective is that the answer to the question posed by @payn in the OP cannot come from mechanical rules thinking, nor can it come from past designs reinforcing "the fighter fights, it's in the name, duh."

I believe that answer needs to come entirely from the right brain, from art, from myth, from poetry, from storytelling, from sharing stories of beloved fighter PCs, from pure imagination.

The problem is not that we can't design it. The problem is that we need to imagine it first.

To get into that creative space, it can help to re-frame the question, which sort of biases toward mechanical and comparative design thinking.

Instead of asking "What's left for the fighter after the combat pillar?", we might ask...

• What's a story you fondly remember of a fighter engaging socially with a NPC? Or even more specifically, turning the tables on a NPC without ever lifting their sword?
• Who is your favorite fighter archetype from a book/movie/game that approach exploring or searching a scene with a fresh perspective? Or even more specifically, how did they discover what everyone else failed to recognize?

I realize those questions are slightly leading and probably reflect my personal bias, but I think if we want to move the conversation forward, "this is the way."

 

[éxypnos]

What I do want to talk about are things to do in each pillar and how some classes have greater choice than others. Most importantly, how does the fighter get out of the combat only space?

Simple, I've done it for decades. By role playing. I'll start at the beginning. Imagine a person that can fight and likes interacting with the world at large. Now, BE THAT CHARACTER. Now, DON'T look at the RULES of the game. They just act as a straitjacket to your imagination and fun as an RPG player.

 

[payn]

Simple, I've done it for decades. By role playing. I'll start at the beginning. Imagine a person that can fight and likes interacting with the world at large. Now, BE THAT CHARACTER. Now, DON'T look at the RULES of the game. They just act as a straitjacket to your imagination and fun as an RPG player.

Thanks for stopping bye.