D&D 5E "People complain, but don't actually read the DMG!" Which sections specifically?

[Charlaquin]

A bit late now, but this discussion makes me wonder why nobody ever tried making a fan-made "Dungeon Master's Handbook", made by people who actually run games, to teach people how to run games.

A lot of people run blogs doing exactly that, and many of them have written books synthesizing their advice.

 

[Composer99]

I'm sorry, but are you really comparing the AD&D1 DMG and that from 5e ? Honestly...

But if you think you can do better, by all means, dazzle us with your incredible publications.

The DMG simply tackles a great number of subjects, just read this thread and the fact that people just want more subjects and more details, etc. It does not have to have a structure and be read as a book.

That last sentence seems a particularly bizarre thing to assert. Bluntly, it comes across as being contrarian for the sake of it.

By way of comparison:

• I can't think of any reference manual I have ever read that is as badly-structured, with advanced and often optional content dominating the page count and crucial content buried hither and thither amongst it.
• As a tool for new users, the DMG is useless at best. I can't think of any other "how-to" manual I have ever read where the basic and most foundational material isn't presented first and considered most important.

Actually, I'll do myself one better. Parts 2 and 3 of the 5e PHB together constitute an apt example of what the DMG could/should have been:

• The first chapter of Part 2 ("Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores") runs the reader through the most foundational mechanic of the game.
• The second chapter ("Chapter 8: Adventuring") reiterates the primary gameplay loop, then runs the reader through more-or-less progressive content outlining how most gameplay works - starting with the spans of time typical for gameplay, moving on to how one moves through space over these spans of time, then on to other adventuring activities one undertakes during these spans of time, then on to how one uses one's senses and interacts with creatures, objects, and other features of the game world, then on to stuff that happens in between adventuring (resting and downtime).
• The third chapter ("Chapter 9: Combat") describes how the most structured part of the game - combat - works - and even (in "The Order of Combat") discusses, however briefly, why it's so structured.
• Part 3 is about easily the most complex part of the game, spellcasting (since each spell is like a mini "rules module" unto itself), and so is saved for last. It's both the most advanced content in terms of mechanical difficulty and the most optional content (since every player should probably know how a long rest works or how to take actions in combat, but not every player needs to know how spells work). And here it is, at the very end of the book, where it belongs.

 

[Faolyn]

Question for those who've DMed a lot of 5e:

How often do you find Advantage and Disadvantage cancelling out?

I ask because when I read the RAW, it seems like all the mutual cancellations would wipe out most occurrences either way. But I have little enough 5e experience to know for sure how that plays out in practice, so I'm curious to hear how it tends to work for more experienced DMs.

I find that it only happens in my group when the character has something that causes an extended disadvantage, like being poisoned or having exhaustion. Then the player will try to get advantage through some trait of theirs or through a bit of RP or with someone else using the Help action in order to offset that. But it almost never happens that there's situational disad that cancels out an advantage.

 

[FrozenNorth]

All of it. What other game do you play that you feel like “how much of the rules can I get away with not reading?” is a question it makes sense to ask? If you want to learn to run a game properly, you read the rule book.

I get your point, but most of the DMG ISN’T rules, and that is the problem. The entire first couple of chapters is about planar travel and cosmology, and completely useless if your campaign isn’t going to delve into that. There ate pages and pages of random tables of settlement, NPC quirks, and random dungeon design that depending on your style, isn’t relevant to a DM’s game.

And of course, the whole point about varisnt rules is that they are well, variant, so they are a “maybe” addition.

Frankly, the book is terribly organized, and does a poor job of separating designer intent and assumptions from general tips from random tables from variant rules (and explaining why you may want to implement variant rules and possible consequences).

 

[Parmandur]

A bit late now, but this discussion makes me wonder why nobody ever tried making a fan-made "Dungeon Master's Handbook", made by people who actually run games, to teach people how to run games.

I mean...the DMG was made by people who actually run games...?

 

[Mannahnin]

A bit late now, but this discussion makes me wonder why nobody ever tried making a fan-made "Dungeon Master's Handbook", made by people who actually run games, to teach people how to run games.

A lot of people run blogs doing exactly that, and many of them have written books synthesizing their advice.

Yup. Sly Flourish's The Lazy Dungeon Master and Return of the Lazy Dungeon Master are two DMing advice/prep books that immediately leap to mind. Or Keith Ammon's The Monsters Know What They're Doing, on running monsters and encounters intelligently and effectively.

I'm not sure if the market is there for a big omnibus Unofficial DMG, but smaller works of GMing advice and guidance do seem to be a thing.

 

[Charlaquin]

I get your point, but most of the DMG ISN’T rules, and that is the problem. The entire first couple of chapters is about planar travel and cosmology, and completely useless if your campaign isn’t going to delve into that. There ate pages and pages of random tables of settlement, NPC quirks, and random dungeon design that depending on your style, isn’t relevant to a DM’s game.

And of course, the whole point about varisnt rules is that they are well, variant, so they are a “maybe” addition.

But all of it contributes to formulating an understanding of how the designers envisioned and intended for the game to be played, which in my view is important for someone hoping to run the game to understand. Maybe a lot of it won’t be immediately relevant, but all of it will help you form a mental picture of what this game is like.

Frankly, the book is terribly organized, and does a poor job of separating designer intent and assumptions from general tips from random tables from variant rules (and explaining why you may want to implement variant rules and possible consequences).

I don’t disagree, which only makes reading it thoroughly so as not to miss something that may have been put in a weird place all the more important.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I find that it only happens in my group when the character has something that causes an extended disadvantage, like being poisoned or having exhaustion. Then the player will try to get advantage through some trait of theirs or through a bit of RP or with someone else using the Help action in order to offset that. But it almost never happens that there's situational disad that cancels out an advantage.

My experience is similar to Faolyn’s. It isn’t often that either side has disadvantage, so cancelling it out with advantage is something that happens less than once every two sessions.

 

[Asisreo]

I get your point, but most of the DMG ISN’T rules, and that is the problem. The entire first couple of chapters is about planar travel and cosmology, and completely useless if your campaign isn’t going to delve into that. There ate pages and pages of random tables of settlement, NPC quirks, and random dungeon design that depending on your style, isn’t relevant to a DM’s game.

Well, the first few chapters are about structuring the setting. It has planar travel, but it also has guidance on towns, maps, languages, currency, events, history, time, and flavors of fantasy.

Even planar travel isn't really just "planar travel." There's the cosmology that explains where your world is in the grand scheme of the planes, which can be important if you start introducing interplanar entities. Cool, you have a fiend...where did it come from? The abyss? The Nine Hells? What other creatures might come? What do the players, and the world, already know? Sure, you can improv that, but you open yourself up to fumbling and inconsistencies.

Plus, there are actual rules in there as well even for low level play. Like, the Border Ethereal allows a character to see about 30ft and can move omnidirectionally with no extra effort. That might not be apparent to everyone, especially those new to D&D and it's take on being ethereal.

 

[Yora]

But all of it contributes to formulating an understanding of how the designers envisioned and intended for the game to be played, which in my view is important for someone hoping to run the game to understand. Maybe a lot of it won’t be immediately relevant, but all of it will help you form a mental picture of what this game is like.

In the olden days, it often used to be "play the game as designed to learn how it actually works, and then later add your own tweaks to improve the aspects that you feel aren't working for you as written."
A big issue I have with 5th edition is that I really don't know how the rules as written are supposed to be used. There are many mechanics that explain how they work, but there is a lack of understanding on my side of what they are meant to accomplish. What is the 30-minute-gameplay loop of D&D 5th edition that the designers designed the mechanics for? What did they think a D&D adventure looks like in play?