D&D General Perception vs Investigation

[billd91]

There are times I think that 3e had the better approach to having two different skills that have this particular conceptual overlap. Spot was for being aware enough of your surroundings to spot lurking and probably imminent threats while Search was for a focused effort to examine things to find traps, secret doors, etc.
I think 5e is trying to separate the two in a somewhat different way, but at the cost of encumbering an already multi-task event with an additional step - searching to find a trap (Perception), studying to analyze the trap (Investigation), and then disarming the trap (maybe Sleight of Hand). That's almost as bad as AD&D/3e's bifurcation of the concept of stealth and foiling stealth into two separate skill oppositions - Hide and Move Silently vs Spot and Listen.

 

[Distracted DM]

This thread is marked DnD2024, but I think folk are sharing their opinions in general so I'll happily share how much LU A5E helped me out with this:

I look at the skills' specialties, and that guides me.

 

[DragonLancer]

This thread is marked DnD2024, but I think folk are sharing their opinions in general so I'll happily share how much LU A5E helped me out with this:

I've changed it to General now. I put it as 2024 because that's the edition I'm running and I wasn't sure if the skill use might have been different in 2014.

 

[aco175]

One other issue I have always had with using Investigation only for deducing things is that most of the time if there is something I want figured out, I want the players to be the ones to figure it out. That's the point of me putting in some mystery-type moment in the adventure in the first place. I am wanting to challenge the players and not just give another target number to roll against.

Now I don't have an issue with letting the players roll Investigation if they just aren't wanting to spend their time trying to figure the stuff out... but it does reduce the number of times Investigation would be rolled, and thus my desire to use it elsewhere as well. Using it to find traps and doors has been a lovely compromise.

I tend to use a sliding DC scale if the players are more engaged or it they just want to make a check. If the players can use their words to make me think they are doing something better than I think 'searching a room' is, then I lower the DC a couple.

I might also lower the DC if I think finding something would make a better game night than not finding it. If In my mind the DC is 15 and the PC rolls a 13- it might be just good enough. Although I tend to tell them the DC before rolling.

But sometimes I fudge. Is admitting the first step.

 

[Bae'zel]

This thread is marked DnD2024, but I think folk are sharing their opinions in general so I'll happily share how much LU A5E helped me out with this:

I look at the skills' specialties, and that guides me.
View attachment 418519

Oh yeah these are great, IMHO.

Cements my take that Investigation is searching via close up (ie, touching, poking around, close interaction), Perception is searching from a distance (ie, sight, hearing, smell, sixth sense etc.).

Use Investigate to socialize with a crowd to find the suspect. Use Perception to watch the crowd from the sidelines to find the suspect.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Oh yeah these are great, IMHO.

Cements my take that Investigation is searching via close up (ie, touching, poking around, close interaction), Perception is searching from a distance (ie, sight, hearing, smell, sixth sense etc.).

Use Investigate to socialize with a crowd to find the suspect. Use Perception to watch the crowd from the sidelines to find the suspect.

Just a nitpick: I’d use insight to find the suspect. (Another underused skill)

 

[Bae'zel]

Just a nitpick: I’d use insight to find the suspect. (Another underused skill)

HAHA very very true.

 

[tombowings]

Amusingly, I generally advise less experienced players that the PHB’s recommendation for creating a rogue is wrong, and that Wisdom should be a higher priority for them than Intelligence because Perception checks are so important for rogues to be able to find traps and secret doors. I tell them Intelligence can still be useful, especially for Arcane Tricksters, so don’t dump it, but that Wisdom should be at least as high as Intelligence if not higher. If you’re gonna dump anything, dump Strength.

Because the game has a serious lack of wise, weakling criminals...make sense...um...

Don't need no brawn for tavern brawls, climbing walls, pole vaulting, or leaping rooftop to rooftop. Gymnasts are scrawny match-stick men, don't you know.

And wisdom! All criminals meditate, contemplate enlightenment, and pursue philosophy (as in love of wisdom). Duh, bro!

(Boy, the WotC posse knocked it out of the park with this one! Really emphasizes those classic fantasy archetypes.)

 

[Charlaquin]

Because the game has a serious lack of wise, weakling criminals...make sense...um...

Don't need no brawn for tavern brawls, climbing walls, pole vaulting, or leaping rooftop to rooftop. Gymnasts are scrawny match-stick men, don't you know.

And wisdom! All criminals meditate, contemplate enlightenment, and pursue philosophy (as in love of wisdom). Duh, bro!

(Boy, the WotC posse knocked it out of the park with this one! Really emphasizes those classic fantasy archetypes.)

Wisdom hasn’t really been about meditating, contemplating enlightenment, and pursuing philosophy for like 25 years, dude. It may be called wisdom, but every WotC edition has both described and treated it as a combined awareness and mental resistance stat, and as the quick wit to Intelligence’s book learning. All of which fits right into the rogue’s wheelhouse. Meanwhile, parkour just isn’t really a major feature of dungeon crawling, and the rogue has always been more the type to bring a shiv to a fist fight than to get involved in a direct brawl, barroom or otherwise.

 

[tombowings]

Wisdom hasn’t really been about meditating, contemplating enlightenment, and pursuing philosophy for like 25 years, dude. It may be called wisdom, but every WotC edition has both described and treated it as a combined awareness and mental resistance stat, and as the quick wit to Intelligence’s book learning. All of which fits right into the rogue’s wheelhouse. Meanwhile, parkour just isn’t really a major feature of dungeon crawling, and the rogue has always been more the type to bring a shiv to a fist fight than to get involved in a direct brawl, barroom or otherwise.

If you're right, the dudes (and dudets) can't even name their terminology properly. Perhaps, the WotC posse needs to buy a thesaurus.

(Or have have supined themselves before lord Hasbro. How sweetly they kiss his plastic Marvel action figures! Guess that's why they make the big bucks.)*

Maybe...I'm also a fool, so don't listen to me.

*Other hypothesis may also apply. (Oh, the things we do for miniature green portraits for Andrew Jacksons! Numbers must rise.)