D&D 5E Persuade, Intimidate, and Deceive used vs. PCs

[iserith]

this seems so weird to me... do you tell them what they know with know checks like arcana or do you make them look it up because you don't tell them what there character thinks?

What a character thinks, says, and does is up to the player. The result of what the character does is up to the DM. If a player describes his or her character as trying to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes, I may ask for an Intelligence (Arcana) check, if I feel the result of the attempt at recalling lore is uncertain. Otherwise, the attempt at recalling lore succeeds or fails outright.

It's all about the action that is taken.

I don't tell them how he acts, but if an NPC uses there ability to interact with the PC I let them know "Hey he intimidated you, he bluffed you"

As I see it, I can say what the guard tries to do (e.g. "...tries to be intimidating by gripping the hilt of his sword..." or "...tells you that she was at the tavern when the murder occurred..."), but I can't say how that is received by the character, short of magical compulsion.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I don't think that agency means you can do what ever you want... agency is you are in control, but if someone intimidates your character I as the DM am not going to intimidate the person across the table... so the roll makes it then the persons agency is how they react to being intimidated, or bluffed, or persuaded...

Ok, this is where we get into the different interpretations of 'player agency'. To me it's less about doing what you want and more about being in control of your character's thoughts.

In other words, my character is only intimidated if:
a) A magical effect is used on me which causes me to be afraid
b) I say he's afraid

It would just feel weird to me for a DM to say that I was persuaded/intimidated/deceived because an NPC rolled it. That doesn't feel like roleplaying to me, more like pretending.

 

[iserith]

so if one of my players (Kelly) was playing your game and said "Can I roll to see if he's lying" what would you tell her... I ask because she is the most stereotypical nerd/shy girl she can't tell even obvius lies in real life, and in game she never trusts herself...

"Kelly, I can't tell you if you need to roll until I'm sure of what your goal and approach is here. What is your character trying to do and how is she trying to do it? If I think you have an uncertain chance of success or failure, I'll ask you to roll. Otherwise, I'll just tell narrate your action into success or failure. So what are you doing and what do you hope to accomplish?"

Players don't ask to roll dice at my table. They describe what they want their characters to do. I say whether they roll.

 

[JediGamemaster]

As I see it, I can say what the guard tries to do (e.g. "...tries to be intimidating by gripping the hilt of his sword..." or "...tells you that she was at the tavern when the murder occurred...", but I can't say how that is received by the character, short of magical compulsion.

I don't like playing word games with my PCs, the idea of him being intimatating needs to be explained to some players (some would pick up on that) I don't think it's fair to both sets of players if it goes over ones head...

 

[iserith]

I don't like playing word games with my PCs, the idea of him being intimatating needs to be explained to some players (some would pick up on that) I don't think it's fair to both sets of players if it goes over ones head...

There is a marked difference between "The guard is trying to intimidate you..." and "You're intimidated." The former is acceptable in my view. The latter is not.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Ok, this is where we get into the different interpretations of 'player agency'. To me it's less about doing what you want and more about being in control of your character's thoughts.

In other words, my character is only intimidated if:
a) A magical effect is used on me which causes me to be afraid
b) I say he's afraid

It would just feel weird to me for a DM to say that I was persuaded/intimidated/deceived because an NPC rolled it. That doesn't feel like roleplaying to me, more like pretending.

It would feel equally weird to me if the DM tried to intimidate me across the table, or if they just never had anyone be intimadatign because they didn't want to roll the dice...

 

[JediGamemaster]

"Kelly, I can't tell you if you need to roll until I'm sure of what your goal and approach is here. What is your character trying to do and how is she trying to do it? If I think you have an uncertain chance of success or failure, I'll ask you to roll. Otherwise, I'll just tell narrate your action into success or failure. So what are you doing and what do you hope to accomplish?"

Players don't ask to roll dice at my table. They describe what they want their characters to do. I say whether they roll.

man that would be so funny, she is obviously trying to see if he's lying what else do you need her to say?

 

[JediGamemaster]

There is a marked difference between "The guard is trying to intimidate you..." and "You're intimidated." The former is acceptable in my view. The latter is not.

the only difference between us then is if the player would roll to intimidate so would my NPC... if I roll and say "I got a 17 intimidate cheak" would that be better then "I beat you on an intimidate check" I don't understand the NPC either did or did not intimadte the dice are a fair randomizer to decide...

 

[Guest 6801328]

It would feel equally weird to me if the DM tried to intimidate me across the table, or if they just never had anyone be intimadatign because they didn't want to roll the dice...

Well, yeah, sure.

So what the DM should do is try to describe the NPCs such that you, the player, think "Huh...I don't think I should mess with this NPC."

In other words, the DM (who knows all the secrets of the game) should use that information to deceive, persuade, or intimidate you. When the situation is reverse you should use the dice, because his NPCs also "have all the information", by dint of being controlled by the DM. Does that make sense?

 

[iserith]

man that would be so funny, she is obviously trying to see if he's lying what else do you need her to say?

I need her to describe what she wants her character to do by making her goal and approach clear. I will tell her if she needs to roll. This is the basic conversation of the game and the core resolution mechanic at work.

In a game where the DM decides whether the task undertaken by the character succeeds, fails, or has an uncertain outcome, basic game theory says you don't want to roll. You want to try for outright success and roll only as a fallback measure. So asking to roll doesn't make a lot of sense and intrudes upon the DM's role.