D&D 5E Persuade, Intimidate, and Deceive used vs. PCs

[JediGamemaster]

FWIW, this is exactly why I don't allow "Insight" to be used as a lie detector.

First of all, it's not "realistic" and although there are wizards and dragons in this game, I think the basic skills should represent normal human abilities. And humans simply do not have the ability to detect lies. (Strangely, there is evidence that cops who think they are good at detecting lies are actually worse than average.)

the show https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie_to_Me is based on a real person, there is no way to be a perfect lie detector but you can be really good at it.

Second, it replicates a magic spell. A skill should not make a 2nd level spell unnecessary.

um nope the spell works periode your skill could be missed

Third, it trivializes plots. A couple good Insight rolls and all the DMs preparation is out the window.

if a skill used as intended throws your adventure out the window it isn't the skill that's the problem.

If a player wants to use Insight to detect lies, I might give them clues.

"I'll roll Insight to see if he's lying. 20!"
"You can tell he's nervous about something. He keeps glancing at the door, and he's sweating. You see his hand stray to his empty scabbard a few times; it's probably a good thing you took his sword away."

Or I might even use the 20 to then have the NPC contradict his own story, illustrating how the "insight" revealed the deception.

But I would never, ever, ever say "Yeah, you can tell he's lying."

I don't see why letting someone use there skills is a problem...

 

[JediGamemaster]

The player determines that, not the DM. The player is in control of how the character thinks, acts, and what he or she says.



"The guard acts in an intimidating fashion. What do you do?"

"It's raining. What do you do?"

In no way do I tell a player what his or her character thinks, does, or says. I describe the environment, the player describes what he or she wants to do, then I narrate the results.

"the guard intimidated you, what do you do" is the same as "It's raining outside what do you do?"

 

[iserith]

I wrote a guide for adjudicating actions in D&D 5e if anyone is interested in checking it out. It goes over a lot of the stuff I've already mentioned in this thread.

 

[iserith]

"the guard intimidated you, what do you do" is the same as "It's raining outside what do you do?"

I disagree. The former is saying how a character thinks, feels, or acts - intimidated. The latter is describing the environment. It's not a word game. It's being careful about infringing upon the players' role.

 

[JediGamemaster]

I don't under stand why monsters have social skills if I'm not supposed to use them...

 

[iserith]

I don't under stand why monsters have social skills if I'm not supposed to use them...

I use them against NPCs and other monsters when what they try to do has an uncertain outcome or as a way of setting a DC when making opposed rolls with the PCs.

 

[Guest 6801328]

the show https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie_to_Me is based on a real person, there is no way to be a perfect lie detector but you can be really good at it.

Whether Ekman is the real thing or a clever fraud is widely debated, but even if he is really good at detecting lies he has been unable to actually teach it to police departments.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I use them against NPCs and other monsters when what they try to do has an uncertain outcome or as a way of setting a DC when making opposed rolls with the PCs.

Yeah, exactly. Totally fair for NPCs to use Deception/Persuasion/Intimidation against other NPCs.

It's also totally fair to use them on PCs, if that's the way you play the game. I'm just surprised how many people play that way. It does (at least partially) explain why my reservations about Warlords fall on so many deaf ears. This thread helps me grok why my point of view is so hard for some people to see.

 

[JediGamemaster]

I disagree. The former is saying how a character thinks, feels, or acts - intimidated. The latter is describing the environment. It's not a word game. It's being careful about infringing upon the players' role.

but it is because of an outside action, an action that has rules... why do green hags have Deception +4 and knight hags Deception +7, Insight +6, and flyaers Deception +6, Insight +6, Persuasion +6, and the orcs

basic Skills Intimidation +2
war chief Skills Intimidation +5
eye of G Skills Intimidation +3
orog Intimidation +5

 

[Guest 6801328]

"the guard intimidated you, what do you do" is the same as "It's raining outside what do you do?"

I would disagree with this. "The guard is trying to be intimidating" is analogous to "it's raining outside."

"The guard intimidated you" is analogous to "the rain makes you depressed".

The former describe events in the environment. The latter describe the PC's reactions to those events.