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D&D 5E Persuade, Intimidate, and Deceive used vs. PCs

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When I have an npc intimidate the players, and he is successful, I simply describe what is intimidating about him. The players know that I probably wouldn't put unbeatable opponents before them, and they know that any peasant in a tavern, no matter how imposing, is no match for them. So it all comes down to their role playing, and my description.

For example, in my earlier example I had an angry sailor come up to a player who was playing a proud dwarf. The npc sailor was clearly looking for a fight, when all the player wanted to do, was enjoy a nice drink. The sailor, eager to get into a fight with a dwarf, threw around some insults about the dwarf's size, and I rolled an intimidate, which was successful. So I described that the sailor did indeed look very tall and strong, with his arms and chest covered in tattoos. As a DM, I impersonated the sailor's gruff voice, and his funny insults, which even cracked up the players a bit. I also described that the rest of the tavern seemed to be on the side of the sailor, and that they may lend him a hand if it came to a fight. The player didn't want this to turn ugly, especially since the sailor was just a jerk, and not a real threat. And so he left, which was great role playing on the part of the player.

As a DM I can't tell a player how his character would react. What I can tell him, is what he sees. With a successful intimidate, an npc might look stronger, taller and more menacing than he really is. How a player reacts to that, is entirely up to him.
 

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Dude you would really tell someone to stop asking questions?

I would and have. If you honestly didn't hear me or misunderstood, ask me to repeat what I said. If you're seeking new or additional information, have your character do something to get it.

There's an epidemic of 20 Questions at many tables these days. Just watch any actual play video and count the number of questions people ask. Once you become aware of it, you just can't help but notice. I think my games are better for having talked to players about trading in their questions for actions.
 

No, they see a man gesticulating, holding certain materials and waving his hands. Turning those observations into "he's casting fireball" requires a thought process, and if the character in question has poor arcana, the conclusion may be incorrect.

Only if they've previously seen or heard that exact thing. In which case there's no need for a roll.

Or he's not, because he's double bluffing. Or he's not because the character is unaware of mannerisms local to the area, or any number of other things. But apart from that, the character sees something, applies his mental stats and ends up with a result. If that's not thinking, I'm not sure what is.

The descriptions have been abstracted from the source observations by knowledge and deductions. Further, those deductions may be incorrect or incomplete depending on the character. The DM is dictating what the character thinks what their observations mean and is probably also coloring the description with emotion that is not selected by the player. A game where the DM delivered only raw objective descriptions would probably be quite dull, and would take a very long time to get anywhere.

Calling practically any description the DM telling the player what his or her characters thinks or how they act is further obfuscation of the clear and (in my view) important distinction which you actually identify here (emphasis mine):

Good DMs constantly tell players how their characters feel, but they do it implicitly through the building of engaging descriptions. It's a core element of effective storytelling. Directly saying "your character feels scared" might be crude, but it's not actually doing anything differently from dimming the lights, putting on spooky music, and describing a scene with an appropriate mood and in a low voice. You're influencing the players mood and therefore the character's actions.

Only it is different. Potentially influencing a player's mood by description or atmosphere is not the same as telling a player his or her character is "scared" or "intimidated."

At a guess, if a player describes their character doing something impossible, the result at most tables and in most games will not be "ok, that happens", and I doubt that anyone would have an issue with that. The player is responsible for the character's choices, and no other boundary is absolute.

Sure. The role of the DM is to describe the environment and narrate the result of the adventurers' actions, but the boundary for the DM is in establishing how the character thinks, acts, and what the character says. That is for the player to do and nobody else in my view.
 

I would and have. If you honestly didn't hear me or misunderstood, ask me to repeat what I said. If you're seeking new or additional information, have your character do something to get it.

There's an epidemic of 20 Questions at many tables these days. Just watch any actual play video and count the number of questions people ask. Once you become aware of it, you just can't help but notice. I think my games are better for having talked to players about trading in their questions for actions.
I believe that "20 questions" is the better D&D game. I don't like beating around the bush I go with directly treating my PCs as equals. We talk, and sometimes I even change the scene based on what they say...

a week ago we ran through a hobgoblin camp, the big tower they invaded had a room full of incense, and a magic bed made of clouds, a bunch off glowing stones instead of candles. it was super magical and pretty much all mundain comfort... in the next room was a kitchen and one of the PCs had an idea for plates and cups of prestidigitation...they clean themselves after meals... so when he said that I added them. Later 2 rooms later when they meet Jackeem and Dallia (the hobgoblin captians who's room they already ransacked) we took like ten minutes of out of game jokeing and questioning... the PCs OUT of game assumed jack was the kick butt guy and Dee was just his woman... was just some hotty he had hooked up with. When I explained she was a CR 5 and he was a CR 3, they were shocked. She earned her role and was even a bard of the war college.

Now, because of the out of game talk, we togather brain stormed a few things that made the next few rooms BETTER, because we talked and shared ideas about the two of them.

The story of my world morphed entirely when one PC asked some quastions, and the world was better for it.

Now that doesn't always happen. SOmetimes I just have to find different words to describe something. However I would be very mad if I tried to ask a DM a question out of game, and he just shut me down...
 

Only it is different. Potentially influencing a player's mood by description or atmosphere is not the same as telling a player his or her character is "scared" or "intimidated."

The only difference I see is the amount of 'playing games' you do with the PC. I don't try to hide that I am 'Potentially Influencing a players mood by description or atmosphere' I just come right out and say "I want to effect the mood of the game" I am no longer interested in beating around the bush... just like I don't describe every elf... I use the short hand elf... SOmetimes I completely use out of game terms and let the player do it all in his imagination...

example: way back in 2e if the PC ran across a drow NPC who was powerful fighter and wizard with a modified bladesinger kit I would in detail describe him and let them draw his own conclusion... today I would just come right out and say "This one here is my new NPC he's really cool I made him a swordmage like drow with some bells and whistles, you all can tell more or less he has X Y and Z..."

Sure. The role of the DM is to describe the environment and narrate the result of the adventurers' actions, but the boundary for the DM is in establishing how the character thinks, acts, and what the character says. That is for the player to do and nobody else in my view.
the problem is you keep saying this without listening to the fact that no one disagrees with this, they disagree on where the line falls, not that the line exsists... people on my side just don't thin we are doing any different then you in execution...
 

I have played with many groups and many players, and most, myself included, have one thing in common: they think they know a lot more about the world, their characters, and the campaign in general than they really do, and most of the assumptions players make are generally at least partially wrong. This has really only lessened when I've managed to play with the same people routinely for long periods of time, and even then, it can be surprising what assumptions others are bringing to the table. Usually the moments when those assumptions are most likely to come into play is precisely the moments that you are advocating leaving everything up to the player. This causes a lot of stress at a lot of tables. This is where using some of those mechanics on the PCs can help, if used right. You don't tell them them, "You're intimidated, take a -2 to all rolls for the rest of the encounter," you tell them "you are intimidated because (flesh out world or character history here to give them something to work off of), take a -2 to all rolls for the rest of the encounter."

Why does it cause the table stress?

Acting on bad assumptions is the fault of the player in my view and thus correctable by the player by taking whatever action is necessary to confirm those assumptions before acting on them. If the DM describes Beat Horsedeath's attempt to intimidate the PCs into surrendering and the Horsedeath clan is known far and wide as brutal warriors not to be trifled with and the player has forgotten or ignored this, that is not the DM's problem as far as I'm concerned. The player is welcome to say "I try to recall what I know about orcs of the Horsedeath clan..." or "I want to size up this warrior to see if I can take him in a fight." These are actions the DM can adjudicate.

Of course, there is potentially some culpability on the part of the DM. If the DM did not inform the players of this knowledge while framing the scene (or otherwise imparted the information in some other scene), then the player cannot be expected to make an informed decisions. However, that still doesn't stop the player from trying to confirm his or her assumptions. That's just smart play in my view. Don't assume every troll is harmed by fire, after all, because the DM can change up monsters.

Inspiration is a great idea, but generally requires the player to actually understand enough about the world, character background (i.e. what does being a noble of the city of Israth really mean?), how they fit in the world (do they agree with the general behavior of a noble of Israth or do they deliberately do something different?), etc. before that mechanic can really have full effect.

Not really. At a minimum, they only need to play to their established personality traits, ideals, bonds, and flaws which they themselves choose as part of their background selection. If you want to award Inspiration for knowing particular things about your campaign setting, that's just a bonus.

Short of sitting everyone down and giving a long explanation or writing it all out, and hoping they take the time to read it, the moments where any of the skills can potentially be used are the only real chances a DM has to actually get across enough of this information for player choice and inspiration to really work.

The DM can do this through describing the environment, framing things in terms of what characters in that world would know about the elements of that scene e.g. nobles of Israth. No mechanics are required in my view.

It sounds like your group can do this without a lot of heavy reliance on mechanics; most groups aren't that lucky.

All groups can do this in my experience. I run a lot of pickup groups on Roll20 and it doesn't seem to be a struggle for anybody.

Most groups I've been in, that really doesn't happen; some or all of the players would play off the intimidation as a failed attempt, the scene largely ends up being a largely blah encounter, and the game suffers. There really does have to be some kind of mechanical oomph behind the perceived negative as most players will not touch anything that leaves them less than 100% total control, and therefore, never really grow either themselves as a player or their characters.

I don't see why this must be necessarily so. Beat Horsedeath makes his threats. Maybe the PCs respond with threats of their own or the more cowardly characters advise caution. Perhaps they call Beat's bluff - or maybe Beat's a badass and proves it. Lots of potential in an interaction like this that doesn't involve rolling an Intimidate check for Beat against a PC and then telling the player his or her character is "intimidated."

It's the same reason that most negative stats tend to be downplayed by the majority of players. Any kind of exposure or weakness in the character is actively and quickly tamped down, leaving little room for the DM to expand the story, world, or characters beyond what the players currently know (or think they know) without a lot of force. Much of this is well earned on the player's part, as many have had bad experiences with DMs that went overboard, but ignoring the mechanics completely isn't going to resolve any bad experiences.

Again, I don't see the connection between downplaying low stats and the DM being unable to expand the story or setting. (The characters becoming developed is on the players.)

In the end, for those lucky enough to find a consistent group to play with, simply ignoring or choosing to not apply rules is a perfectly valid option because it can be done in a larger framework of trust and common understanding of what the game should do. For most, it isn't; sporadic and selective use of the rules when trust and common understanding is not already present, as it won't be in most pick up groups or organized play setting, actually makes things harder, not easier. Trust and common ground only come with consistency, and folks willing to bend the skills rules so far as to not apply them to PCs are generally also going to make other changes to the game that newcomers are not likely to fully understand and immediately appreciate. There's a reason I won't play 5E with just anyone, or for that matter, any organized play league now that I have other options; too much potential table variance makes it hard for me to understand precisely what I can reasonably expect in most cases. So, while your approach probably works fine for your table, it would absolutely collapse at many others. This is both the strength and weakness of 5E's making the DM the center of the game.

From my perspective, I'm not "bending" the rules. I see nothing in the rules that indicates the DM may say how a character thinks or acts.

And my experience with pickup groups appears to be the opposite.
 

And my experience with pickup groups appears to be the opposite.

the fact that I can go to run a pick up game in 4 different states and have no issue, and you have years of doing so including internet and have no issue should tell you something... no matter witch side of this you are on you are right and playing the game as intended... because neaither style is unplayable in a pick up group... we do thing different, but at the end of the day the hard line you are taking here is un founded... NO ONE is having a problem with the way we run games, or the way you do... so we must not be infringing too much on the PCs...
 

I believe that "20 questions" is the better D&D game. I don't like beating around the bush I go with directly treating my PCs as equals. We talk, and sometimes I even change the scene based on what they say...

To me, a question isn't an action. In an improvisational acting sense, it's often waffling or wimping because it doesn't move the scene forward. It's just the player talking to the DM rather than the character doing something in the game world.

a week ago we ran through a hobgoblin camp, the big tower they invaded had a room full of incense, and a magic bed made of clouds, a bunch off glowing stones instead of candles. it was super magical and pretty much all mundain comfort... in the next room was a kitchen and one of the PCs had an idea for plates and cups of prestidigitation...they clean themselves after meals... so when he said that I added them. Later 2 rooms later when they meet Jackeem and Dallia (the hobgoblin captians who's room they already ransacked) we took like ten minutes of out of game jokeing and questioning... the PCs OUT of game assumed jack was the kick butt guy and Dee was just his woman... was just some hotty he had hooked up with. When I explained she was a CR 5 and he was a CR 3, they were shocked. She earned her role and was even a bard of the war college.

Now, because of the out of game talk, we togather brain stormed a few things that made the next few rooms BETTER, because we talked and shared ideas about the two of them.

The story of my world morphed entirely when one PC asked some quastions, and the world was better for it.

Now that doesn't always happen. SOmetimes I just have to find different words to describe something. However I would be very mad if I tried to ask a DM a question out of game, and he just shut me down...

I'm not averse to anything you say here and often invite players to describe the environment or even to narrate the results of the adventurers' actions (e.g. describing a deathblow or a critical hit). I don't believe anything actually exists until it's established in play anyway. However, none of this need be accomplished by the players asking the DM questions.

If you ask me a question, I'm generally going to ask that you take some specific action in the game setting that will permit your character to get the answer you seek. For example, "Can I talk to Helga alone?" should be "I try to talk to Helga alone." Do stuff, rather than ask questions. Most players stop asking so many questions after a couple of reminders in my experience.

Much of this exchange is outside the scope of this thread in any case.
 

The only difference I see is the amount of 'playing games' you do with the PC. I don't try to hide that I am 'Potentially Influencing a players mood by description or atmosphere' I just come right out and say "I want to effect the mood of the game" I am no longer interested in beating around the bush... just like I don't describe every elf... I use the short hand elf... SOmetimes I completely use out of game terms and let the player do it all in his imagination...

example: way back in 2e if the PC ran across a drow NPC who was powerful fighter and wizard with a modified bladesinger kit I would in detail describe him and let them draw his own conclusion... today I would just come right out and say "This one here is my new NPC he's really cool I made him a swordmage like drow with some bells and whistles, you all can tell more or less he has X Y and Z..."

I think the DM is obligated to adequately describe the environment. ("Adequately" here does not mean "ponderously long.") I do not see this as "beating around the bush." It is simply the DM's role, a full third of the basic conversation of the game. You will know what Beat Horsedeath is trying to accomplish by way of my description.

the problem is you keep saying this without listening to the fact that no one disagrees with this, they disagree on where the line falls, not that the line exsists... people on my side just don't thin we are doing any different then you in execution...

You are though. And that's okay if that's what you and your players enjoy. I would not.
 

the fact that I can go to run a pick up game in 4 different states and have no issue, and you have years of doing so including internet and have no issue should tell you something... no matter witch side of this you are on you are right and playing the game as intended... because neaither style is unplayable in a pick up group... we do thing different, but at the end of the day the hard line you are taking here is un founded... NO ONE is having a problem with the way we run games, or the way you do... so we must not be infringing too much on the PCs...

I would have a problem with the way some of you run games. That doesn't mean you're wrong to run them that way. Please don't mistake my dislike for particular practices being espoused here as a statement that there is only one way to play.
 

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