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D&D 5E Persuade, Intimidate, and Deceive used vs. PCs

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I think the distinction is what comes first, the roll or the role? In iserith's case he wants people to role and then roll, where typically board games have you roll and then what you do is based on the roll. It's dice as adjudication v. dice as determination.

For me, role and roll basically come together. Some scenes might have one first and then the other while other scenes reverse the order and yet other scenes, it takes both at the same time. It just depends on the scene and how the PCs are handling it.
 

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I'm saying that absolute DM fiat, without baseline assumptions, does not serve the goals of play. The goals of play are best served when the players have reasonable expectations of what outcomes are possible. Your argument that the rules are fluid and entirely subject to DM fiat at all times does not establish a useful baseline.

"Reasonable expectations of what outcomes are possible" is achievable through understanding the context of the fictional situation without any knowledge of the rules. Someone who doesn't know the rules at all can certainly play by listening to the DM describe the environment and then saying what they want to do, knowing at a minimum that sometimes what they say they want to do will have an uncertain outcome which brings rules and dice into play at the DM's discretion.

You have no idea how I view the game, and it's certainly not like it's a previous edition. I further find it ludicrous that you think that this edition somehow empowered the DM more than previous editions did. Granted, this one makes it more obvious, but it's not special in the rule zero case.

It depends on what you mean by "Rule Zero." If you say that means that the DM can change any rule at will, I'm definitely not referring to that. As I mentioned before when it was suggested I "ignore" rules, I am not changing them, only using them as needed which is in my view how rules are treated in an RPG - largely descriptively, not prescriptively.

I do view the rules as presented as the baseline assumption of the game that my players will bring. I don't think they should be changed or viewed as fluid because that prevents the players from making rational choices based on expectations. That's not to say they can't change, or that the DM isn't responsible for making rulings when the rules fail to cover a situation, but that the DM should not be changing rules willy-nilly or on a whim. Your blanket argument that the rules serve the DM result in arbitrary enforcement of rules as a supported playstyle. Why, then, have a set of rules if your first inclination is to ignore them?

Again, players can make decisions based on what they understand of the fictional context of the situation. And I'm not suggesting changing rules "willy-nilly or on a whim" or indeed at all, nor am I saying to ignore them. In my view, they are tools to bring into play as needed. If they are not needed, they don't need to be brought into play. When they are needed is when there is uncertainty as to the outcome of a fictional action.

No, the rules establish that if you use the ability, the target makes a save. The save is a roll of the dice, not some other mechanic. There's nothing in the rules that say, "determine if the DM thinks there's conflict when you use this ability before rolling your save. Depending on that determination, anything the DM wishes may happen." You're inserting this concept of uncertainty when and where you want to to justify ignoring the rules as written. Again, you can do this, but please stop pretending that there's a 'determine if there's uncertainty' step in the PHB or DMG. That's your rule, and you apply it how you want to, and that's perfectly fine. But it's not part of the baseline rules at all.

"Sometimes, resolving a task is easy. If an adventurer wants to walk across a room and open a door, the DM might just say that the door opens and describe what lies beyond. But the door might be locked, the floor might hide a deadly trap, or some other circumstance might make it challenging for an adventurer to complete a task. In those cases, the DM decides what happens, often relying on the roll of a die to determine the results of an action."

- Basic Rules, page 3

So for example if the barbarian tries to frighten an enemy with his or her menacing presence, I can decide that this was so easy that no saving throw is necessary - it just succeeds. If there is some circumstance that might make it challenging, such as that enemy girding its will against the attempt at intimidation, then a roll of a die is called for, in this case, a saving throw.

Special pleading, again. You can't just say that 5e is exceptional in this regard as if it actually supports your position to do so. It may be special, it may support your position, but you can't get there through assertion. There's nothing in 5e that, in any way, explicitly establishes that your choices are correct. The way that Intimidating Presence works seems to contradict it, at least as far as you choosing to ignore the explicit functioning of that ability. I get that you have a mindset and a method that works for you and yours, but it is not inherently better than another's just because you think it is. Nor is it more correct. You choose to add player immunity to social abilities as you wish, but that's not inherently better than allowing those abilities to work on PCs. Nor is either position clearly supported in the rules -- they both can claim equal precedence (your ruling on Intimidating Presence, though...). You've been smug and making assumptions about how people do things at their table with the implication that if they just opened their minds and agreed with you, their games would become better. I know what you're doing, I fully understand it, I do many similar things at my table (I give my players great agency with their characters to determine things about the world and to engage as they choose), but I reject the idea that the game constructs of characters are somehow uniquely sacrosanct just because there are players behind them.

Please note I will no longer be responding to any statements that suggest I'm saying or inferring things that I've already stated are untrue, specifically, that I believe my way is "right," that others are having "badwrongfun," that anyone is a terrible person for not playing as I play, that they'd have more fun if only they saw the light, and so on. I've addressed these assertions repeatedly already and I refer anyone who wants to continue with such assertions to my previous posts on the matter. It is an unproductive line of discussion. In my view, it's focusing on tone to avoid hearing the content which I find regrettable.

At the same time, I will endeavor to double check my posts for any language that could be taken as inflammatory in the above regard. If despite my efforts, something doesn't look right, please see my comment above.

To me, if the player asks me 'I'd like to make an insight check to see if my character thinks this guy is telling the truth,' I don't see anything wrong with that because that's the player wanting to tap into the character's abilities and awareness.

If the DM decides on success, failure, or uncertainty (and ask for a roll), why would you want to ask to roll? Wouldn't you rather see if you can achieve outright success? I would never ask the DM to roll. I'd prefer not to leave my fate to the dice, if it can be avoided. It can't always be avoided, of course, due to the fictional circumstances, but I'm certainly not going to suggest there is uncertainty by asking to roll.

Now, if the DM asks for rolls for pretty much everything, then the smart play as I see it is to get really good at building characters so that I can maximize my chance of success at rolling dice, then try to limit what I do to only those things I'm good at doing. Of course, the DMG does suggest there are drawbacks to the DM asking for rolls for pretty much everything.

It seems to me that you are less willing to allow the players to tap into their character's abilities and awareness, instead preferring to leave the interaction entirely at the roleplaying level, escalating such die rolls to crucial points of conflict in the scene. I don't see much point in that, I'd prefer the decisions the players make on the information to be the crux of the scene, not the die roll to resolve uncertainty.

Not at all. Players are free to tap into their characters' abilities and awareness. They establish the fiction to do it and then I narrate the results of their actions, sometimes calling on dice to resolve uncertainty.
 

I wouldn't assume any of my players would have any idea what the room looks like until they say "I take a look around." One of the easiest ways to miss things I find is that players don't take the time to look, they just assume that being there means they would have seen it and their lack of communication on this is not the cause for the DMs lack of return communication. This situation plays out like this:
DM: you all enter the large round room with funny doors.
P1: *stares intently at the DM*
DM: So what are you doing?
P1: *well the dm didn't tell us anything is here so there must be nothing here* We go on to the next room!

That is actually one of the trickiest situations to manage. On the one hand, simply having the DM assume that the characters saw everything and taking 10 minutes to describe everything isn't good, but neither is waiting for questions or PC actions to provide any kinds of details whatsoever.
 


the disconnect for me here is very much "I take a look at the other doors"

just being in the room my character has already seen them, but they were not described, so I don't know what my character already knows... instead of using an in game action "I take a look" I am just asking for clarification "What did my character already see" the same with this whole "I rack my brain..." or as @iserith said "Recall lore" neaither of those actions are correct in game...

If I walk into a room with 3 doors, I see all three doors. If I already know about a street gang down the road, or who the president is, or what board games I know, then I don't have to 'recall lore', or 'rack my brain' I just know. so when I ask out of game about them, it is because it is a reflex for my character to know it...

I think in my game the role comes first too... I just don't think that roll can be completely left out in most cases (like say social skills)

I think inherent in your assumptions is that I absolutely suck at describing the environment.
 

But there's an inlaid assumption here: that you saw the doors. Did you? When I walk into any room IRL there are plenty of times I survey the room and get a good feel for how it looks. There are other times when I walk right on in. Can you never say you just walked in to a room without any thought or question of what might be there?

I guess it depends, I will say I have never in my life been in a life or death dungeon crawl... so grain of salt this.

If I walk into a room I know, or at least think I know maybe I wont notice everything. I'm pretty much not a perceptive person... BUT if I walk into a room for the first time (like last year when I saw my fathers new house for the first time, or my most recent girlfriend's house) I think it's safe to say I at least look at most of the room, and even if I'm not paying attention, the amount of doors I don't think would surprise me...



I think you have been implying something and haven't stated it until now: that your character didn't just walk in that they walked in and actively took a look around.
an how I say this doesn't matter one bit. If I say I walk in, you describe one door, then I ask about the others it is as useful as if I tried to describe it better...




I wouldn't assume any of my players would have any idea what the room looks like until they say "I take a look around."
I on the other hand just let them ask...



One of the easiest ways to miss things I find is that players don't take the time to look, they just assume that being there means they would have seen it and their lack of communication on this is not the cause for the DMs lack of return communication.
except again, my game is all about communication...

This situation plays out like this:
DM: you all enter the large round room with funny doors.
P1: *stares intently at the DM*
DM: So what are you doing?
P1: *well the dm didn't tell us anything is here so there must be nothing here* We go on to the next room!
I have never in my life seen a game that ran like that...

DM: you all enter the large round room with funny doors.
P1: "What do you mean funny?"
DM: "They are all different shapes"
P1: "Do you have the different shapes pick out or does it matter?"
DM: "Most don't matter much, but one looks like a Christmas tree"

seem more like one of my games...
 

That is actually one of the trickiest situations to manage. On the one hand, simply having the DM assume that the characters saw everything and taking 10 minutes to describe everything isn't good, but neither is waiting for questions or PC actions to provide any kinds of details whatsoever.

Sure, which is why I usually tell people things like:
You are in a large round room, with 4 strange doors (not counting the one you came in through) and a small pedestal in the middle.

It's quick, it covers the obvious and if players are curious they can state what they're doing. "I examine the doors". - I explain doors. "I examine the pedestal." - I explain the pedestal. and so on. I'd rather answer what people want to know about then just start spouting off about the room.
 

I would not let a PC say "Hey NPC do what I say," then make a skill check and just let it happen, I also wouldn't let an NPC do so to another NPC, or a PC...

With regard to anyone doing this to a PC, I agree with you. With regard to an NPC, however, if trying to get an NPC to help you with some sort of requested aid is not a valid use of a Charisma check, and if success on such a check does not yield the desired aid, then what is a Charisma check for?

so lets say you are fighting a group of orcs, and the chief steps out and slams his sword on his shield and lets out an intimidating cry... he then says "This ends here..." and points to the PC and I say in my DM role "He is going to try to cowe you and using intimidation rolls a 26..." the ball is now in the PC court...

Player A could say "Who, Ok my ranger holds his hands up and thinks... he is taken aback."
Player B is just as right to say "My bard smiles and puts on the charm 'Your right... lets talk this out no need to keep going'"
but at a different table we might have
Player A "My paliden never backs down even when confronted with over welming odds. I move in and attack"
Player B "Lawful dumb is on his own, my rogue knows the better part of valor and I run"
but at a third table we could have
Player A ":):):):)... I surrender"
Player B "What? really, OK I guess I do too..."

being intimidated is a reaction to stimuli how you CHOOSE to act is still yours...

In that case I can choose to not be intimidated, which makes me wonder what the roll was for.

I know I used to have my sorcerer stutter and cower at any threat... even at 17th level when I had 8th level spells...

It sounds like that was a role-playing choice you made for your character, not dependent on any die rolls.



this only makes sense if that NPC would be doing that... an NPC barbarian is as likely as any PC to choose fight over flight... "Congrats you scared me, my only choice is to strike out like a child now"

Right, you're free, as DM, to determine that there is no chance to successfully influence the NPC and skip the roll altogether. Also, how you choose to role-play the NPC's response might preclude success from the outset.



It depends, sometimes I have generic NPCs, but somethimes I have spent a lot of time detailing the minds and thought process of my NPCs...

DM impartiality in no way implies that: 1. the NPC is generic and without detail, or 2. the DM is not role-playing the NPC and is only obeying the results of die rolls to determine the NPC's reactions. Die rolls are not necessary at all for a DM to be impartial. An impartial DM is one who runs the game in such a way so as not to take sides either for or against the PCs, but is rather serving fairly as a judge or referee ought to do. The players on the other hand ought to be taking the side of their PCs.



yes he is meant to assume the role of the PC, and make all of the consiuse choices... and sometimes even control the world around the PC or some set of NPCs around the PC... but that doesn't make him more or less in control of the whole world...

I'm not sure how you're connecting role-assumption to controlling the whole world. I'm only suggesting that players control and advocate for their PCs.



letting a player in the social pillar ignore the rules and character sheet doesn't seem any more roleplaying... you took on the role of your character, now play it...

Acting out the result dictated by a die roll is not role-playing. Role-playing is inhabiting your character and making your character's decisions yourself. The dice can't do it for you.
 

I think inherent in your assumptions is that I absolutely suck at describing the environment.

not that you suck at it, but that you are human... and as such you will never be able to relay all of the information verbally that even an inobservant person pulls in.

I also assume you have both good days and bad. that sometimes you are right on point, and other times your not.

my problem is you seem to think that you can't ever be wrong, you never miss anything...
 

That is actually one of the trickiest situations to manage. On the one hand, simply having the DM assume that the characters saw everything and taking 10 minutes to describe everything isn't good, but neither is waiting for questions or PC actions to provide any kinds of details whatsoever.

What's tricky about it?
 

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