D&D 5E Pew Pew magic......AHHHHHHH! Make martials all day swingers and casters limited per day slingers.

[ForeverSlayer]

"I just want to say that I can't stand Boom Gone magic. I think there should always be at will spells including read magic. I would like to see casters remain having at-will magic as an option. I think the realm of at will and no limited attacks per day, or even per encounter, should include spellcasters."

This is my opinion on this subject. I know others have different tastes. I hope the game includes options to accommodate my tastes as well as theirs. Thank you.


Right, because daily spell resource management no longer exist, and those at-will spells are just game-breakingly powerful.

Never said they were game breakingly powerful, just mind numbing boring.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

See, I take the exact opposite viewpoint. I mean, it's absurd that someone could swing a sword all day. It's freaking heavy, and even if every roll that doesn't meet or exceed the target's AC is indeed a complete whiff that only connects with air, the hits you do get in obey that whole 'every action has an equal and opposite reaction' rule, which means eventually your arm is going to get a bit sore. It's entirely implausible to keep on swinging all day long, unless you're John Henry (in which case you'll drop dead at the end of the day, which kind of sucks) or a robot of some sort.

Meanwhile, why shouldn't casters be able to cast pew-pew magic all day? Magic is an external force that they're controlling by waving their hands about and muttering silly words, which (from personal experience waving my hands about and muttering silly words, though with sadly a lack of any notable magic effect, unless you count making people look at me funny) is far less tiring than swinging a sword about (nevermind the whole making-sure-the-other-guy-with-the-sword-doesn't-hit-you-back bit). It's not like magic itse6lf is getting tired. And most importantly, in the immortal words attributed (possibly incorrectly) to former Marvel Comics Editor-in-Chief Joe Quesada,"It's magic, we don't have to explain it."

Okay, so it's absurd to he able to swing your sword all day, but it makes sense that it takes you 24 hours to remember how you swung your sword that certain way the day before?

 

[Dausuul]

The discussion right now shouldn't be whether attack cantrips should be removed from the game... but rather should the DMG include a fully-playtested module that removes cantrips or moves them to each classes 1st level spell list, and what has to occur or get added to make that balanced.

That is indeed an interesting question. I was just pondering that. Ideally, the module would make it possible for a cantrippy wizard and a non-cantrippy wizard to play side by side.

Let's see what the overall benefit is, by level, of using ray of frost versus a crossbow. (Warning: Lots of educated guesswork ahead.) We'll discount the slow effect, which in my experience has very limited usefulness, and just look at damage. Assume you start with Int 17/Dex 12, and put your first two stat bumps into boosting Int. Also assume that your typical target has an AC of 13, which is about what the typical humanoid mook has. We'll bump that value by 1 for every 5 levels to reflect generally tougher opposition (so AC 14 at level 5, AC 15 at level 10, etc.).

Level 1:
Ray of frost hits on 9 (60% chance) for 1d8 damage (4.5). Average DPR: 2.70
Crossbow hits on 11 (50% chance) for 1d8+1 damage (5.5). Average DPR: 2.75
Value of cantrip over crossbow: None whatsoever

Level 5:
Ray of frost hits on 8 (65% chance) for 2d8 damage (9). Average DPR: 5.85
Crossbow hits on 11 (50% chance) for 1d8+1 damage (5.5). Average DPR: 2.75
Value of cantrip over crossbow: 3.1 per round

Level 10:
Ray of frost hits on 7 (70% chance) for 3d8 damage (13.5). Average DPR: 9.45
Crossbow hits on 11 (50% chance) for 1d8+1 damage (5.5). Average DPR: 2.75
Value of cantrip over crossbow: 6.7 per round

Level 15:
Ray of frost hits on 6 (75% chance) for 4d8 damage (18). Average DPR: 13.5
Crossbow hits on 10 (55% chance) for 1d8+1 damage (5.5). Average DPR: 3.025
Value of cantrip over crossbow: 10.475 per round

(I'm not bothering with level 20. By that point you have Spell Mastery and the question of cantrips is moot.)

So, that gives us a baseline--but of course the benefit only applies in rounds in which you don't cast a "real" spell. Let's assume the typical adventuring day includes 20 combat rounds (say, four encounters of five rounds apiece). Assume also that you will burn through 3/4 of your spell slots, rounded down, during said adventuring day, holding the rest in reserve in case of emergency. So a 1st-level wizard will cast 19 cantrips per day; a 5th-level wizard will cast 14; a 10th-level wizard will cast 9; and a 15th-level wizard will cast 7.

Very roughly, then, how many bonus 1st-level spells does a wizard need in order to make up for the loss of attack cantrips? Conveniently, we have a handy metric for 1st-level spell damage--magic missile, which does a flat 13.5 regardless of level. So, let's give the non-cantrip wizard some number of bonus 1st-level slots, such that casting that many magic missiles and then falling back on a crossbow deals equivalent damage to casting ray of frost the whole time.

Level 1: No bonus spells needed.
Level 5: 4 bonus magic missiles needed.
Level 10: 5.6 bonus magic missiles needed.
Level 15: 7 bonus magic missiles needed.

Of course, there is an awful lot of guesswork and estimation in these results. They would need heavy playtesting to make sure the estimates hold up. But I think it's good enough to give a rough idea of what such a module would look like. If I were going to try a quick-and-dirty home fix, I would probably say 1 bonus 1st-level slot, plus 1 for every two wizard levels.

 

[Obryn]

Reserve feats, notably, are not available to first level characters, and are a choice that some spellcasters make to add on to their characters, not the default mode of casting.

... And?

Does "not available until X level" make it any less "Pew pew"?

And isn't there a choice already about what cantrips you pick?

 

[Ahnehnois]

Does "not available until X level" make it any less "Pew pew"?

Yes. There's drastically reduced availability, and also a sense that the ability, once gained, has been earned. At-will cantrips effectively mean that anyone who has even a passing interest of magic has an infinite supply of it, which cheapens it and makes it less special (hence the mocking). For a high-magic campaign world where the intent is that magic is ubiquitous, that might make sense, but not otherwise.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I think what our party will do is capture a bunch of low level wizards, hook them up to giamt magic draining machines, and use their infinite magic to power large cities, and weapons of mass destruction.

 

[Obryn]

Yes. There's drastically reduced availability, and also a sense that the ability, once gained, has been earned. At-will cantrips effectively mean that anyone who has even a passing interest of magic has an infinite supply of it, which cheapens it and makes it less special (hence the mocking). For a high-magic campaign world where the intent is that magic is ubiquitous, that might make sense, but not otherwise.

The 1st level wizard has paid a price for it - the opportunity to have something else. And being a 1st level character isn't a mere "passing interest."

As for the rest - D&D has mortals able to cast Wish, flying dragons, golems, undead, gods with worldly presence, curing disease, elves, fireballs, fairies, unicorns... Tell me it's not high magic.

 

[Mistwell]

Remember when Gandalf, Harry Potter, Merlin, Harry Dresden, Dr. Strange, and Willow Ufgood all said hold on, I need to rest 8 hours so I can get my spells back?

Me neither.

Vancian spellcasting is gamist invention for D&D. I know it's called Vancian after Jack Vance's Dying Earth magic, but it's not that magic because every one of those spells was a named-spell that was the equivalent of a 9th level spell that could insta-kill almost anyone, was intelligent spells which you had to essentially mentally wrestle into your brain, and which was theoretically based on technology rather than magic in a manner similar to magic in Numenera. Heck, Vancian magic isn't even consistently Vancian, as Jack Vance portrays magic entirely differently in the Lynoesse Trilogy.

It's funny that you call at-will magic "pew pew", since "pew pew" is the sound kids make when pretending to fire a pistol, and it's actually a pistol which comes with only a limited number of shots in it. Vancian spellcasting is sort of like the Saturday Night Special version of magic - a broke-down cheap and limited type of what "normal" wizards can do at the force of their will, because they're wizards! It would be like a car that can only drive 5 miles before it breaks down from over-heating and needs to sit overnight before it can drive another 5 miles.

Now all that is an exaggeration of course, as I am OK with using D&D-style Vancian magic to some extent. I just think there is a place for at-will magic, and that sort of magic makes more sense to me, is more consistently believable with almost all portrayals of magic in novels and movies and comics and plays and other expressions of culture, and it fits well with this game.

But yeah, I am pretty sick of you calling it pew-pew magic. I'd appreciate it if you knocked that off, because it's rude and unnecessary to make your point.

 

[Obryn]

I think what our party will do is capture a bunch of low level wizards, hook them up to giamt magic draining machines, and use their infinite magic to power large cities, and weapons of mass destruction.

Right after you round up a hundred commoners and have them turn wheels all day because they'll never get tired? Or a hundred fighters and have them swing weapons all day for wind power and never run out of energy? Oh, or a "peasant railgun" for cross country delivery!

OMG we found perpetual motion and it didn't even need magic! That'll teach the designers they need to implement fatigue mechanics!

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Remember when Gandalf, Harry Potter, Merlin, Harry Dresden, Dr. Strange, and Willow Ufgood all said hold on, I need to rest 8 hours so I can get my spells back?

Me neither.

Vancian spellcasting is gamist invention for D&D. I know it's called Vancian after Jack Vance's Dying Earth magic, but it's not that magic because every one of those spells was a named-spell that was the equivalent of a 9th level spell that could insta-kill almost anyone, was intelligent spells which you had to essentially mentally wrestle into your brain, and which was theoretically based on technology rather than magic in a manner similar to magic in Numenera. Heck, Vancian magic isn't even consistently Vancian, as Jack Vance portrays magic entirely differently in the Lynoesse Trilogy.

It's funny that you call at-will magic "pew pew", since "pew pew" is the sound kids make when pretending to fire a pistol, and it's actually a pistol which comes with only a limited number of shots in it. Vancian spellcasting is sort of like the Saturday Night Special version of magic - a broke-down cheap and limited type of what "normal" wizards can do at the force of their will, because they're wizards! It would be like a car that can only drive 5 miles before it breaks down from over-heating and needs to sit overnight before it can drive another 5 miles.

Now all that is an exaggeration of course, as I am OK with using D&D-style Vancian magic to some extent. I just think there is a place for at-will magic, and that sort of magic makes more sense to me, is more consistently believable with almost all portrayals of magic in novels and movies and comics and plays and other expressions of culture, and it fits well with this game.

But yeah, I am pretty sick of you calling it pew-pew magic. I'd appreciate it if you knocked that off, because it's rude and unnecessary to make your point.

PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW!

Also, you need to go and read a bit of The Dresden Files to get your facts straight. Harry would be completely exhausted amd have to sleep after casting his spells. He couldn't cast no where near all day.