PHB 2 power creep

[Dan'L]

3-4 at first without using any invigorating attacks or feats. Often they end up ignoring more than half the damage thrown at them.

Yeah, but I'd rather not be hit in the first place than ignore half the damage.

You're not factoring in their bonus damage, which with mighty feat is +4 per hit by epic, or a possible 8 extra damage per round on dual strike. The +1 to hit is still better, but they're not there to be the top damage dealers, defenders are there to mitigate incoming damage and let the rest of the party go about dealing it.

Because this build you're talking about? Dual Strike with the BRV for extra damage? What's that, 16 AC at level 1? Vs. a 19 AC for a Sword & Board? You're going to need those temp HPs, or you're not going to be much of a Defender.

Sure you can max out one thing or another, but it's the overall balance of a character that makes it playable. It's all in the particular flavor of balance in the builds that make one appeal to a player more than another; one player's immovable force is another player's doorstop.

I think the true test will be checking back in 6 months or so and seeing what percentage of players of fighters pick which builds. It could be that an overwhelming number will play BRV over any other build, but quite frankly the people I've talked to who've played them have seemed to have grown bored with them fairly quickly. YMMV, though.

-Dan'L

 

[satori01]

Frankly, I think the PHB II encourages the use of BR Fighter...because a quick perusal of PHB II shows that the Warden, Barbarian, and Druid all have an at will power that will give X ability modifier in Temp HPs.

Battlerager Vigor is still better in terms of Temp HPs (because of stacking) than simply training in Endurance and taking an Invigorating at will.

 

[Nail]

Frankly, I think the PHB II encourages the use of BR Fighter...because a quick perusal of PHB II shows that the Warden, Barbarian, and Druid all have an at will power that will give X ability modifier in Temp HPs.

That was my impression too.

Currently, I'm playing a human BRV fighter. I created the character before MP as a sword-n-board WT fighter, then swapped Weapon Talent for BRV when Martial Powers came out. As built, my PC doesn't out-shine the other PC in the party. I'm actually pretty careful to build this PC so that's the case.

...but if I could have built the BRV fighter from the ground up (and taken the Dwarven Race and all those tasty feats!), it would be a broken PC. Of that I have no doubt. The amount of hammer damage I could put out, and the amount of melee damage I could take, would be legendary.

 

[KarinsDad]

Okay, now you're getting off again.

Ok, you're right. I concede the point.

 

[KarinsDad]

...but if I could have built the BRV fighter from the ground up (and taken the Dwarven Race and all those tasty feats!), it would be a broken PC. Of that I have no doubt. The amount of hammer damage I could put out, and the amount of melee damage I could take, would be legendary.

We had a player who did this build. When we switched DMs, he switched to an Invoker, partially because his build seemed so broke.

AV added some seriously potent weapons. MP added some seriously potent build options.

 

[Intense_Interest]

So, let me get this straight. Each power hits 1 time in 20 more than it would have.

So, if there are 10 round encounters, the +1 to hit helps on one round out of every TWO encounters. In 7 rounds encounters, the +1 to hit helps on one round out of every THREE encounters. 95% of the time, the result of an attack between the two Fighters are identical.

Line removed by admin. I know you added a "snark" label and meant to be funny, but still something we'd rather not see. The rest of the post, though, is fine. ~ PCat

You completely missed the possibility multiple actions/attacks in an encounter. Every time a Fighter OAs, you're getting an extra "punch" on that +1. This is especially helpful if you're using Mark-heavy powers and have "squishies" optimized for damage instead of defending and are playing in Terrain+ combats.

BRV fighters, on the other hand, are less likely to hit with those OAs and are therefore less likely to be as sticky, especially if the Natural Fighter doesn't pump his Constituion as much in lieu of his Wis and/or Str.

And on the side-note, monsters being aware of powers is a Rule 0 application. If they're aware of powers being used on them as per RAW, it can also be said in the same vien that monsters can tell if their powers are being soaked by the BRV fighter. GM discretion, ofcourse.

 

[KarinsDad]

You completely missed the possibility multiple actions/attacks in an encounter. Every time a Fighter OAs, you're getting an extra "punch" on that +1. This is especially helpful if you're using Mark-heavy powers and have "squishies" optimized for damage instead of defending and are playing in Terrain+ combats.

BRV fighters, on the other hand, are less likely to hit with those OAs and are therefore less likely to be as sticky, especially if the Natural Fighter doesn't pump his Constituion as much in lieu of his Wis and/or Str.

In order to do an Apples and Oranges comparison, one has to just consider Fighters who replace +1 with BRV.

And you are correct. I ignored OAs. It's still one attack in 20 and will typically occur less than once per encounter (assuming not an extremely long encounter).

Now, DM style can affect this. One DM might rarely have a marked foe OA and another DM might have it occur all over the place.

And on the side-note, monsters being aware of powers is a Rule 0 application. If they're aware of powers being used on them as per RAW, it can also be said in the same vien that monsters can tell if their powers are being soaked by the BRV fighter. GM discretion, ofcourse.

According to the PHB rules, monsters are only definitively aware of power's effects on them, not PC's power's and abilities' effects on themselves (unless for some reason the effect is obvious like Flying).


Do you think that a monster should KNOW that a Fighter is +1 to hit? Is it obvious? If so, is it obvious that a Fighter is using a +2 weapon instead of a +1 weapon?

Where does one draw the line?

At what the PHB states. Powers that affects the monsters and powers that are obvious.

 

[Intense_Interest]

In order to do an Apples and Oranges comparison, one has to just consider Fighters who replace +1 with BRV.

So we're watering down the conclusion down to "in situations where BRV is not optimal, it isn't optimal"? Doesn't say much for how "overpowered" the feature is- because in my experience, a STR/WIS fighter does much more to keep the party alive than a BRV twinky Fighter, simply because of how many OAs are missed because of the extra points in CON.

And you are correct. I ignored OAs. It's still one attack in 20 and will typically occur less than once per encounter (assuming not an extremely long encounter).

Now, DM style can affect this. One DM might rarely have a marked foe OA and another DM might have it occur all over the place.

"Typically", it will specifically occur once every 20 OA attacks, and more like once every 4 or 5 when you consider the ease of access to feats like Heavy Blade Opportunity and otherwise, in an optimal Sticky-Fighter build.

And BRV fighters are the exact kind of Non-Sticky fighters it is easier to move around. If the DM doesn't slide around the Fighter to give the squishy caster a few more death saves, you're really not playing the combat as challenging as it means to be.

According to the PHB rules, monsters are only [/b]definitively[/b] aware of power's effects on them, not PC's power's and abilities' effects on themselves (unless for some reason the effect is obvious like Flying).

...

Where does one draw the line?

At what the PHB states. Powers that affects the monsters and powers that are obvious.

(Bolding mine)

So intelligent monsters aren't able to use logic that somehow this Dwarf Thug is not even being effected by their attacks? It doesn't need to be a definitive instant reaction to understand that THPs are being stacked like cordwood.

BRV is pretty much as obvious as you can get with a class's ability for a Fighter. Goblins figure out that the Wizard has a Shield spell from the staff in my campaign because it is obvious. It is just as obvious that no actual damage is being done to a BRV Fighter, because anything else would be ignoring the game-state as-is.

 

[KarinsDad]

So we're watering down the conclusion down to "in situations where BRV is not optimal, it isn't optimal"? Doesn't say much for how "overpowered" the feature is- because in my experience, a STR/WIS fighter does much more to keep the party alive than a BRV twinky Fighter, simply because of how many OAs are missed because of the extra points in CON.

Your experience is anecdotal.

My experience with a BRV Fighter (compared to several other Fighters) is the exact opposite. Most people who have posted experience with a BRV Fighter have agreed with my anecdotal experience.

"Typically", it will specifically occur once every 20 OA attacks, and more like once every 4 or 5 when you consider the ease of access to feats like Heavy Blade Opportunity and otherwise, in an optimal Sticky-Fighter build.

The BRV Fighter can get those feats as well. So, it is still one in 20 attacks.

Take a Fighter with a CON of at least 12. Swap out +1 to hit with BRV. Everything else is the same.

The BRV Fighter wins in the long run. He lasts longer and saves on resources. He misses one attack in 20. But, he has an entire group to make up that single successful attack (i.e. the encounter might last a fraction of a round longer, woo hoo).

And BRV fighters are the exact kind of Non-Sticky fighters it is easier to move around. If the DM doesn't slide around the Fighter to give the squishy caster a few more death saves, you're really not playing the combat as challenging as it means to be.

Nonsense. Both Fighters are equally as sticky. They both mark. They both threaten their foes with their marks.

Only if the DM is metagaming numbers does a foe bypass the BRV Fighter's mark and not do so for the +1 Fighter's mark.

So intelligent monsters aren't able to use logic that somehow this Dwarf Thug is not even being effected by their attacks? It doesn't need to be a definitive instant reaction to understand that THPs are being stacked like cordwood.

What THPs are those? How does the monster see them? With its X-Ray vision through the Dwarf's armor?

And, who said the BRV Fighter had to be a Dwarf?

How does the monster know the difference between a BRV Fighter and a +1 Fighter that is simply several levels higher? How does the monster know the difference between a BRV Fighter and a +1 Fighter with Toughness?

The monster has never met the Fighter. It does not automatically know why the Fighter can take a beating and keep standing.

You are just making up this stuff about monsters knowing about THPs out of the blue. The rules do not state this.

BRV is pretty much as obvious as you can get with a class's ability for a Fighter. Goblins figure out that the Wizard has a Shield spell from the staff in my campaign because it is obvious. It is just as obvious that no actual damage is being done to a BRV Fighter, because anything else would be ignoring the game-state as-is.

Quote a rule.

This is a rules forum.

Opinion is fine, but quote a rule for such silliness.

Hit point damage is not actual damage in 4E anyway. It is easily recovered within minutes without any magic at all. The only time it is actual damage is when the PC dies. Otherwise, it's just some form of exhaustion, minor nicks, or some other pseudo non-actual damage.


The only thing the Goblins know is that after hitting this guy a lot of times, he's real tough. Nothing more. Nothing less. Duh!

What are your goblins, psychic?

 

[Regicide]

BRV is pretty much as obvious as you can get with a class's ability for a Fighter. Goblins figure out that the Wizard has a Shield spell from the staff in my campaign because it is obvious. It is just as obvious that no actual damage is being done to a BRV Fighter, because anything else would be ignoring the game-state as-is.

Just as obvious to the monster would be that they're going to lose the fight and should be running away. When minions are dying to a flick of the wrist and a BRV fighting takes your best shot and laughs in your face, you don't go after the wizard instead because he's squishier... You get the F out of Dodge.