PHB Cleric = Unbalanced?

[William Ronald]

Heck, even beyond Paladins, Druids, and Clerics, EVERYONE has someone to answer to, contrary to some beliefs. I understand that D&D is often seen as escapism, where someone can run around without answering to authority, but even PCs have higher-level PCs to answer to, or society in general, so they can't just "do what they feel" at all times. So whether the higher-up is a god, or your trainer, or a city official, or a vengeful DM , it doesn't bother me if a cleric I play has a "higher calling." Heck, it makes "finding your character motivations" even easier, so why NOT take advantage of it?

PRECISELY!!! This is something that some players fail to understand. A character's actions have an influence on the world, and there are people whom the PCs will have to answer to in some sense. Attack an orcish stronghold, and clerics of Gruumsh may decide you are an enemy --- while your local lord or town officials may turn to your PCs for help in other matters. Attack the town guard, and find out that there are people who will back up the guards. No character exists in a vacuum, and PCs should find that they are having some influence in the world -- including having other people pay attention to their words and deeds.

As for motivations, clerics can have a good time in finding motivations. My main critique of WotC's Deities and Demigods is that there was not enough information to tell players more about how clerics relate to their deities and how that relationship shapes their outlook. Fortunately, good players and DMs can help set up a sense of what it means to be a cleric of a given deity.

Here are a few examples of what one can do with a cleric, using a deity from Greek myth. (We have more information on deities from mythology than we do for a deity such as Moradin.) A cleric of Athena follows a deity devoted to knowledge, wisdom, and war. As Athena is listed as a lawful good deity, her followers probably would not go to war lightly -- but would probably employ sound strategies. In times of peace, they may have an interest in acquiring knowledge and spreading it -- which may be a justification for exploring those dusty old ruins. Similarly, they may feel a call to heroism and expect people to turn to them for good advice. (A priest of the goddess of wisdom might offer some sound counsel.) They may even be asked to advise leaders, bringing the clerics into the realm of politics and diplomacy.

 

[Corinth]

Most PCs past a certain character level are utterly unaccountable because they become too powerful for the authorities to bring them to account for their actions. (Exactly what point that is depends upon the setting.) Players don't want to answer for their actions, in general, and they are willing to inflict terrible violence in defense of their autonomy; it's this confluence of player attitude and character power that contributes to clerics (and paladins) being unpopular choices when playing D&D.

 

[IronWolf]

I enjoy playing clerics, but I wouldn't say they are overpowered. They do get a lot of benefits, but oftentimes to excel at one or two things they have to give up or sacrifice in another area. The current cleric I am playing can hit pretty hard and is armored to the gills, but he moves slow and is loud! I think other character classes have things that make them pretty powerful as well. I know in our current campaign I by no means hog the spotlight. At times its the wizard stealing the show, or the bow wielding archer or the Psychic warrior of the group. Sure my character has his moments, but so do the others.

 

[was]

I have no problem with clerics the way they are.

 

[Voadam]

Clerics were designed to be more powerful than other classes in 3e because healing was deemed necessary for the game and people were finding them a chore to play in previous editions.

They are mechanically more powerful because of the totality of their powers:

Self buffed they are better warriors than fighters.

Decent enough combat to be on the front lines even unbuffed (hp, heavy armor AC, decent weapons).

They are primary casters with specialist slots in full armor with double the HD size of wizards.

They get every spell on their class list to choose from, no cost (druids get the same bonus but less slots to use these with).

Massive spontaneous healing, great buffs, some blasts, great divinations, same summonings as a conjurer specialist with only a few alignment choice restrictions. They even have mind affecting attack spells like command and hold person. Any cleric can be great at any of these areas on any given day.

Their spell casting stat is mechanically useful for will saves.

Two good saves.

Plus turning and domain powers as bonuses.

And diplomacy as a class skill.

So we have: can fill warrior role, can fill healer role, can fill combat support role, can fill ranged spell back row role, can do spell investigations, has special undead powers, and can fill social diplomat face role.

Wizards can do more blastems and a few magics clerics can't but a lot of overlap and clerics are much more durable and clerics have more spells to choose from without spending other resources.

Fighters have more BAB, hp, stronger weapons, more feats and can fight all day, but self buffs can make clerics comparable or better. Not much else fighters can do.

Diplomacy, clerics don't have the points or class skills for the synergy bonuses, but they can max out diplomacy and fill the social role normally given to a bard or rogue or leader paladin.

 

[tetsujin28]

/side note: Has anyone partaken in a group of ALL clerics? How did you all fare?

Yes. It went swimmingly.

 

[Zimbel]

Cleric power

A few comments, having played and DMed a total of roughly 7 3.x clerics, spanning all levels up through about 21:
1) At LV 1, clerics are very strong. Good spellcasting + good combat ability + 2 domain abilities is very good. In one of the games I played in (up through LV 3), the cleric was a stronger melee combatant than the Paladin. Even better, at low levels, turning is a very nice ability (if you meet appropriate creatures). Note that unless you focus on it, it will become nearly useless by mid-level. Needless to say, in almost every case, their skills will be poor.
2) Healing is a non-issue if you allow the creation or purchase of CLW (Cure Light Wounds) wands. Outside of combat, Clerics can just use CLW wands to preserve their other spells. Additionally, often they can get other PCs to chip in on their purchase.
3) At some point, unless they focus heavily on weapon work (Greater Magic Weapon rocks once you get it), they get weaker until around LV 11 or so.
3) At mid levels (11+), clerics shoot up again. Harm, Heal, and Holy Word (or it's equivalent) are all better than any wizard or sorcerer's equivalent. Depending on your chosen domains, you may be getting some very good domain spells around here, as well. They no longer weaken, except perhaps in comparison to other major spellcasters.
4) At very high levels (17+) their only real competition are the other major spellcasters (but this is an issue with all the spellcasters). They no longer need to worry at all about healing - Heal is now the weak healing spell of their repetoir. In 3.0 (which is the only edition I've gotten this high) Clerics appear to be weaker than Sorcerers, but stronger than all non-spellcasting classes. I have not had a chance to compare them to simular level Druids or Wizards for any length of time.

So I would say that most Clerics are stronger than the main-line classes at roughly LV 1-3, 11+ Unlike Wizards/Sorcerers, they don't have to worry excessively about HP (these days my Wiz/Sor have Con, not Dex as their second highest score), and they are effective in every combat at low level (not just 1-2 times a day). A cleric which focuses solely on a single weapon will be stronger in combats where they have prep time, and LV 1-3, 9+ (due to GMW).

Edit: added turning comment

 

[Crosswind]

Zimbel is dead on.

I agree with every assessment up there. People often forget that Clerics have a relatively weak low-mid level spell list.

-Cross

 

[MerricB]

Just a note: Greater Magic Weapon has been significantly weakened in 3.5e (and errata). +1 per four caster levels is not overpowering by a long shot, and the lack of DR penetration just makes it worse.

Likewise, the cleric other melee buff spells have been weakened in errata.

Holy Word remains a standout spell, however. It is stronger in 3.5e

Cheers!

 

[WayneLigon]

We have had at least one cleric in every party we've done since 3E came out, so I think we've seen it's use in low- and high-level play with virtually no house rules. I don't think that the class is significantly different from the other core classes in terms of power.