PHB Cleric = Unbalanced?

[Aaron L]

I'd say that they arentoverpowered, but they definately are close to the top of the heap. Which I dont have a problem with.

 

[Hussar]

Just a point about the clerical spell lists.

Yes, it's true that if you bring in a new supplement (or even playing straight from the PHB) that clerics get the entire list to choose from. Seems like a huge deal, but it really isn't. So many of those spells are of such limited use or duration that they really aren't worth studying unless you actually know you are going to need them. Spells like Helping Hand or Water Breathing aren't likely going to get memorized on a regular basis unless the party knows they are going to need them the next day. Wizard spells are generally far more versatile. Clerics have no particular transformation spells for example, whereas a third level wizard can fly (albeit poorly), create illusions, turn invisible and give the party a safe bolt hole in an extradimensional space. Granted, he can't do all that in the same day, but a cleric can't do any of that at all. The other thing clerics can't really do until fairly high levels, is affect large numbers of creatures. Sure, the cleric might be a melee powerhouse, but, against large numbers of mooks, he pales against the power of the wizzie.

And on a side note about the Law domain - since I saw it get knocked earlier. The fact that you get an extra round out of summoning spells is not a small bonus at low levels, and, since many of the bad guys parties face are chaotic, the bonus spells are almost as effective as the Good domain. Nothing like an Order's Wrath to rain on someone's parade.

Quick question:

Level 13 cleric walks into room. Say he's facing a wiz 13, and 2 fighter 13 of evil alignment. Unless they kill him before he can act, they die (or counter spell, or anti-magic shell). One holy word and the room is clear. No saving throw, no nothing.

Umm, a holy word spell only deafens and blinds those targets since they are one level below the clerics effective level with the good domain. What am I missing?

 

[Uder]

Umm, a holy word spell only deafens and blinds those targets since they are one level below the clerics effective level with the good domain. What am I missing?

Bead of Karma?

 

[MummyKitty]

The other thing about Clerics is they typically have more obligations than other players. Let's face it, if they are devout and passionate enough their religion to actually gain powers from their deity, they must be out there evangelizing and have a big target on their shield for any religion that opposes them (and we all know how well different religions get along, even ones that are supposedly "good" in alignment). Plus, most religions have a structure where the "lower level" members are obligated to obey what their superiors say. Clerics may not have as much freedom to do what they want as other classes.

That's why so much detail is put into religions and deities in most game worlds. This gives the cleric "quirks" that guide their behavior. Yes, rogues have their thieve's guilds and knights have their codes of honor, but I would play a cleric as adhering more strictly to their religious guidelines. If they don't, guess what? No spells for you!

 

[Corinth]

The other thing about Clerics is they typically have more obligations than other players. Let's face it, if they are devout and passionate enough their religion to actually gain powers from their deity, they must be out there evangelizing and have a big target on their shield for any religion that opposes them (and we all know how well different religions get along, even ones that are supposedly "good" in alignment).

Only if the cleric's patron god is like that of the Abrahamic faiths. Most gods don't do that.

Plus, most religions have a structure where the "lower level" members are obligated to obey what their superiors say. Clerics may not have as much freedom to do what they want as other classes.

Again, only if the cleric's religion is highly organized and stratified into an active hierarchy. This is not to be taken for granted, as there are cults where this is not true in whole or in part.

That's why so much detail is put into religions and deities in most game worlds. This gives the cleric "quirks" that guide their behavior. Yes, rogues have their thieve's guilds and knights have their codes of honor, but I would play a cleric as adhering more strictly to their religious guidelines. If they don't, guess what? No spells for you!

By the RAW, you can play a cleric that doesn't have a patron god- and thus don't have to deal with any of this. Don't expect godly dependancy to be the norm.

 

[Kurotowa]

There are a lot different ways to play out being a cleric without being an evangelist. One I'm currently using is to be a paragon, to live according to the teachings of the god and try and emulate the divinity in thought and deed. Since he's a half-orc cleric of Kord this comes out as a lot of focus on becoming stronger, teachings others how to gain strength, accepting bad luck when it comes, and embracing good luck where you find it. In other words, he has a divine mandate to be an adventurer! What better motivation could you ask for?

 

[Silveras]

The other thing about Clerics is they typically have more obligations than other players. Let's face it, if they are devout and passionate enough their religion to actually gain powers from their deity, they must be out there evangelizing and have a big target on their shield for any religion that opposes them (and we all know how well different religions get along, even ones that are supposedly "good" in alignment). Plus, most religions have a structure where the "lower level" members are obligated to obey what their superiors say. Clerics may not have as much freedom to do what they want as other classes.

That's why so much detail is put into religions and deities in most game worlds. This gives the cleric "quirks" that guide their behavior. Yes, rogues have their thieve's guilds and knights have their codes of honor, but I would play a cleric as adhering more strictly to their religious guidelines. If they don't, guess what? No spells for you!

That depends on the campaign. As Corinth mentions, a Cleric does not need to select a deity, instead worshipping an abstract ethos.

In addition, in some (many ?) campaigns, the name of a Cleric's religion is just that: a name written on the character sheet, one that carries a limitation on which spells can be selected and whether you cast spontaneous cures or inflicts. Other than that, the religion means nothing in that sort of campaign.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

I personally feel the Cleric Class is just a little too good at casting and combat combined to be properly balanced, particularly with the way the rules are set up for spontaneously casting Cure spells.

I understand that the cure spell rules were implemented based on player feedback from 2nd Edition, but I think what wasn’t realized then was that the Cleric Spell List is simply too big and powerful; Cleric Players have access to every fricking spell on the list and gained a good shot at using most of them when 3E came on the scene.

Add in Domain spells and…well you’ve got a great class that’s lots of fun to play.

The problem is IMO it’s a little too great.

The class should be changed by deleting spells off the cleric spell list or by lowering the number of spells that can be cast per day. If not this, drop the hit die and/or BaB and save progressions so that Cleric Tank spells become something necessary to ensure the Cleric PC survives in play, as opposed to over the top buff spells.

J. Grenemyer

 

[MummyKitty]

Only if the cleric's patron god is like that of the Abrahamic faiths. Most gods don't do that.

Again, only if the cleric's religion is highly organized and stratified into an active hierarchy. This is not to be taken for granted, as there are cults where this is not true in whole or in part.

By the RAW, you can play a cleric that doesn't have a patron god- and thus don't have to deal with any of this. Don't expect godly dependancy to be the norm.

First of all, I don't "expect" anything from anyone's game, I was merely suggesting some ways to balance out the cleric that fall within the rules. I think playing a cleric without some god or gods that he/ she / it gets power from is a real cop-out, and avoids the questions that are inherant with this class. In fact, the rules are pretty nebulous there, it says you don't have to have a particular god that you follow, but the implication is, there is still one. That's only one sentence of several pages about the class, the rest of which make it clear that the cleric's power comes from a god or gods.

And, I don't think a god has to be "Abrahamic" to be jealous, have evangelists, etc. A god that doesn't guard its power base is not much of a god and wouldn't be very worthy of worshippers. If you don't evangelize, your followers don't grow and your religion dies out.

Anyway, obviously you can run your campaign any way you want, I was never suggesting that anyone had to play this way. But it seems to me the rules are designed for that kind of play.

 

[Crosswind]

I repeat...clerics have an un-diverse, weak spell list from spell levels 1 through 4. They have a mediocre one at 5, and it gets good at higher levels, with spells like Holy Word.

I think it's strange that people cite Divine Power, Righteous Might (and at later levels, Holy Word) as evidence that clerics, as a whole, are overpowered. Perhaps, as I suggested earlier, those spells are just overpowered? It's not as if there aren't spells which are ridiculously overpowered in the PHB itself (Alter self, anybody?).

-Cross