PHB Cleric = Unbalanced?
- Thread starter Goddess FallenAngel
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Mercule
Adventurer
lukelightning said:
Easy houserule that I've put in place: Spells from the PHB are "standard", and everyone with some training knows of them, scrolls can be perchased from temples/guilds, etc. Spells from expansion books and "rare". They may require special research, but generally are where I pull unique NPC spells from.
Arnwyn
First Post
[IMO/IME disclaimer] Our group thinks the cleric is overpowered, for the following reasons: proficient with all armor, 2 good saves, decent BAB (which is easy to increase), full spell progression, healing (the most important ability, in our opinion). With the right (core) feats and domains, their versatility can (reasonably) cover the 4 major roles. Further, if you have a group of 4 of all the same class, a group of 4 clerics will survive (even thrive) the longest out of any other class. By far. And for us, versatility = "power" (a rather vague term at the best of times) in a long-term campaign.Goddess FallenAngel said:
However, we don't consider the cleric to be overpowered enough to bother doing anything to 'em.
It's hard to tell whether something is unbalanced/overpowered when everyone uses different ability score generation methods and runs encounters with differing frequency.
IME, having points to blow on what are normally dump stats won't help a paladin or fighter become too much more effective in combat, but they can make clerics into holy terrors.
Another factor (in combat-heavy games) is the frequency of encounters. Do PCs have a chance to rest between every encounter? All of the spellcasters get a boost in this case, but since clerics have the best "self" buffs, they get the biggest boost. Especially if the cleric can get a round or three pre-combat to buff up. If your game has ten encounters between rest periods, not only might you want to cut down xp rewards, but your cleric will be converting a lot of prepared buffs into cure spells.
IME, having points to blow on what are normally dump stats won't help a paladin or fighter become too much more effective in combat, but they can make clerics into holy terrors.
Another factor (in combat-heavy games) is the frequency of encounters. Do PCs have a chance to rest between every encounter? All of the spellcasters get a boost in this case, but since clerics have the best "self" buffs, they get the biggest boost. Especially if the cleric can get a round or three pre-combat to buff up. If your game has ten encounters between rest periods, not only might you want to cut down xp rewards, but your cleric will be converting a lot of prepared buffs into cure spells.
buzzard
First Post
don't shrug off good domain so fast
A number of posters have been mentioning the good domain as a weak one. I beg to differ. Once you get to high level (13+) it comes in real handy. Holy Word, by itself is sufficient justification for good domain. If you add in a bead of karma from strand of prayer beads, things get really ugly.
Level 13 cleric walks into room. Say he's facing a wiz 13, and 2 fighter 13 of evil alignment. Unless they kill him before he can act, they die (or counter spell, or anti-magic shell). One holy word and the room is clear. No saving throw, no nothing.
You add in the karma bead and the cleric will clear anything in a room with 18 HD or less, in a 40 ft radius. I rather doubt there is any spell in the game as devastating as holy word. The radius is twice that of fireball, and there is no save.
I have seen a cleric built around holy word be particularly devastating. Granted this is late game, but it still is extremely powerful. Holy Word simply blows away all of the Wizard power word spells.
buzzard
A number of posters have been mentioning the good domain as a weak one. I beg to differ. Once you get to high level (13+) it comes in real handy. Holy Word, by itself is sufficient justification for good domain. If you add in a bead of karma from strand of prayer beads, things get really ugly.
Level 13 cleric walks into room. Say he's facing a wiz 13, and 2 fighter 13 of evil alignment. Unless they kill him before he can act, they die (or counter spell, or anti-magic shell). One holy word and the room is clear. No saving throw, no nothing.
You add in the karma bead and the cleric will clear anything in a room with 18 HD or less, in a 40 ft radius. I rather doubt there is any spell in the game as devastating as holy word. The radius is twice that of fireball, and there is no save.
I have seen a cleric built around holy word be particularly devastating. Granted this is late game, but it still is extremely powerful. Holy Word simply blows away all of the Wizard power word spells.
buzzard
William Ronald
Explorer
Henry said:Another vote for "Clerics are not unbalanced, but they ride the line between "Strong" and "Overpowered."
I'll note that a Cleric may well be the ONE class most suited for solo adventuring: Healing, decent combat, divination spells, and domain special abilities all together mean that he could handle many different types of challenges, with some prep time.
WotC gave me a great gift when they restructured the cleric, because where the majority of D&D'ers don't like clerics, and WotC wanted to entice people to play them, I ALREADY liked clerics even back in the Basic D&D days, and playing one in 3E is like being a kid in a candy store.
I have regularly played clerics and wizards in various editions, and agree that clerics are good for solo adventuring.
I think that one problem clerics have is an image problem, as there is a sense that the character has someone to answer to -- a higher power. However, it should be noted that paladins often have a higher power to answer to, and druids must listen to the dictates on nature. (Perhaps the druid who is just adventuring, and doing NOTHING for nature finds a few problems recalling spells. Druids, no less than clerics, have something to answer to -- even if this is the abstract force called Nature. Plus, druids can worship gods of nature as well --- a common enough thing in many campaigns.) Rangers who are spell casters also have some of the same concerns as druids. Having a tie to a higher power, a philosophy, or the force of nature can have advantages, but it will usually entail some responsibility. This responsibility may be part of what keeps some players away from clerics, but there are advantages to this type of connection.
One thing that has not been mentioned is that clerics and druids, can do fairly well in roleplaying encounters as diplomacy is a class skill. Druids, by virtue of having more skilll points, can do better. However, both druids and clerics often have some organizations (temple, druid circle) with whom they are associated with, which can give them some degree of influence and access to important people. Mind you, bards and rogues do have more skill points to spend on diplomacy and other social skills, so this is another area where other classes outshine druids and clerics.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
After playing in a campaign that was predominated by cleric PCs, I'm convinced that the cleric is not overpowered at all. It's true that a group of mostly clerics will be able to stay in the field a long time because all sorts of spells can be cannibalized into healing spells, but there are plenty of major drawbacks.
They have low skill points so either they're good at casting melee and nothing else, or they suck at casting in melee and have a good knowledge or heal. It's nearly impossible to do both. In this respect, they are definitely weaker than wizards since the wizard's prime state compensates (usually quite a lot) for low skill points.
They suck at trap finding... unless that means "trap damage absorbing".
They may have good armor possibilities, but their combat endurance is still limited by weaker hp than the combat monsters (fighters, barbarians, paladins) yet, because their offense is limited by few feats and moderate BAB, they end up locked in combat longer.
Their spells, while good for buffing and support, aren't that great for offense. Many are based on a will save and if the opponent has a strong will save, no luck. Just think of trying to face down a trio of powerful cleric heretics and you'll see how difficult it is to do anything offensive with clerical magic.
Clerics are formidable in a variety of situations, but not overpowered.
They have low skill points so either they're good at casting melee and nothing else, or they suck at casting in melee and have a good knowledge or heal. It's nearly impossible to do both. In this respect, they are definitely weaker than wizards since the wizard's prime state compensates (usually quite a lot) for low skill points.
They suck at trap finding... unless that means "trap damage absorbing".
They may have good armor possibilities, but their combat endurance is still limited by weaker hp than the combat monsters (fighters, barbarians, paladins) yet, because their offense is limited by few feats and moderate BAB, they end up locked in combat longer.
Their spells, while good for buffing and support, aren't that great for offense. Many are based on a will save and if the opponent has a strong will save, no luck. Just think of trying to face down a trio of powerful cleric heretics and you'll see how difficult it is to do anything offensive with clerical magic.
Clerics are formidable in a variety of situations, but not overpowered.
Henry
Autoexreginated
William Ronald said:
Heck, even beyond Paladins, Druids, and Clerics, EVERYONE has someone to answer to, contrary to some beliefs. I understand that D&D is often seen as escapism, where someone can run around without answering to authority, but even PCs have higher-level PCs to answer to, or society in general, so they can't just "do what they feel" at all times. So whether the higher-up is a god, or your trainer, or a city official, or a vengeful DM
, it doesn't bother me if a cleric I play has a "higher calling." Heck, it makes "finding your character motivations" even easier, so why NOT take advantage of it?Similar Threads
