PHBII: Retraining?

[Henry]

Granted, I understand the "fun POV" and even agree with it. But, I still have concerns about balance and consistency when you can change your PC like you can change your clothes.

Don't we do this now?

If Bob doesn't like Geldof the wizard he's playing, Bob chucks said character and rolls up a Fighter? Or worse, he rolls up "Geldar the Wizard" with the feats he wants and continues playing? And if the DM doesn't allow it, he simply doesn't play? He's changing like clothes as-is, only moreso.

I kinda like the option, myself, and I have allowed feat or spell or skill-swapping before; however, as with all rules, it's case-by-case; in most cases, the strictures in the PHB2 are stricter than what I permit.

 

[Pielorinho]

My question - I have a Dex of 12, and take (say) Toughness as a feat at 3rd level. Some levels later, I gain a +1 inherent bonus to Dexterity.

Let's say I get level-drained down to 2nd level, and level back up to 3rd. I qualify for the Dodge feat (my Dex is now 13), and can take it as my 3rd level feat (rather than Toughness, which I took first time round).

Now let's say I don't get level-drained. Under the Retraining system, now that my Dex is 13 (not due to a level-based increase), can I swap Toughness for Dodge? Or does the fact that when I took the Toughness feat, my Dex was 12, prohibit it?

I'm never sure whether you're asking your questions tongue-in-cheek or not. My head hurts just reading it.

One point that's not addressed so far, I think: this brings long-term PCs up to snuff with just-built PCs. If you've been laying the game for two years, and a PC dies or a new player joins, virtually everyone allows the new PC to be created at a level close to that of the other party members. Because they're built at 10th level or whatever, they're at a decided advantage over the PCs who've been around since first level: they can choose a suite of abilities that works ideally for the level they're at, instead of choosing between
a) living with suboptimal feats for part of their career; or
b) Having a collection of feats that works pretty well, but doesn't have good synergy within itself and doesn't necessarily qualify the PC for a prestige class.

With these rules, longterm PCs no longer have that disadvantage. I see that as a major benefit.

Karinsdad, I think your analogy of domains-as-gifts is a little bit off. Deities don't give domains to clerics for the cleric's entertainment: they hand them out so the clerics can further the deity's will. They're employee equipment, not birthday presents. And deities let clerics choose which domains will work.

I might run an office wherein I supply each employee with their choice of a Mac or a PC, from a supply of each that I have in a storeroom in back. If an employee chooses a PC when she first starts working for me, but later on decides that a Mac will better enable her to do the job assignments I've given her, why would I object to her switching out her equipment? A good boss will see that different tools work better for different jobs; and if your trust your workers to choose tools the first time around (i.e., letting clerics pick their domains), why wouldn't you trust them if later on they say that their job would now be better completed with a different suite of tools?

I love things that give more options to players. I want players always to feel that they're doing something interesting with their characters, and the more they can mix it up, the happier I'll be.

Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

One point that's not addressed so far, I think: this brings long-term PCs up to snuff with just-built PCs. If you've been laying the game for two years, and a PC dies or a new player joins, virtually everyone allows the new PC to be created at a level close to that of the other party members. Because they're built at 10th level or whatever, they're at a decided advantage over the PCs who've been around since first level: they can choose a suite of abilities that works ideally for the level they're at, instead of choosing between
a) living with suboptimal feats for part of their career; or
b) Having a collection of feats that works pretty well, but doesn't have good synergy within itself and doesn't necessarily qualify the PC for a prestige class.

With these rules, longterm PCs no longer have that disadvantage. I see that as a major benefit.

I don't really see this in our game for two reasons.

1) Most players figure out at least their first PrC before the first level character sheet is complete. Not one player in our game has come up and said he wanted to change a feat, presumably because they take the time out to plan ahead of time. Granted, they would be unable to change (without the retraining rule) for a new PrC in a new book, but we are already using about 12 books that the players can choose from.

2) Most PCs acquire a lot of magical and other items/equipment as they level up. Many of these are more minor such as scrolls, potions, gems, etc. New PCs (or NPC cohorts) get the major items just like the regular PCs, but they tend to not have boatloads of the minor stuff. For example, one of the (original PC) 6th level Clerics in our game has at least 15 scrolls of various types that he has acquired throughout the levels. If a new PC Cleric was rolled up, he would not have nearly this many starting scrolls.

In other words, original PCs tend to have more options due to having a larger quantity of minor items, at least in our game.

Karinsdad, I think your analogy of domains-as-gifts is a little bit off. Deities don't give domains to clerics for the cleric's entertainment: they hand them out so the clerics can further the deity's will. They're employee equipment, not birthday presents. And deities let clerics choose which domains will work.

Just because a choice is given does not mean that it is not a gift. Spells too are a gift. Ones to be used in accordance with the deity's wishes.

Maybe a better word than gift is privilege. The Cleric has Domain privileges. They are not rights. Privilege means that they are given with the consent and authorization of the deity, not by the entitlement of the Cleric.

 

[Pielorinho]

I don't really see this in our game for two reasons.

1) Most players figure out at least their first PrC before the first level character sheet is complete.

Really? I've sometimes seen people do this, but I never could. I can barely decide what I want to do level to level, much less have my PC's career planned out in advance. What you describe would hurt my suspension of disbelief a lot more than PCs who can change their focus areas-but maybe that's because I'm a Gen-Xer .

2) Most PCs acquire a lot of magical and other items/equipment as they level up. Many of these are more minor such as scrolls, potions, gems, etc. New PCs (or NPC cohorts) get the major items just like the regular PCs, but they tend to not have boatloads of the minor stuff.

We tend to adhere to the wealth-by-level guidelines, so new PCs can choose optimal equipment as well (a problem not addressed by these rules). If they want a lot of scrolls, they can do that, but they don't need to.

Just because a choice is given does not mean that it is not a gift. Spells too are a gift. Ones to be used in accordance with the deity's wishes.

I guess the way I see it is that the deity is getting a lot out of the "gift," which makes it not a gift. If someone starts using their healing spells for fun and profit instead of to advance the deity's agenda, the deity is going to be unhappy. If, on the other hand, a cleric says, "O Great and Might Pelor, I will soon be advancing into the kingdoms of the undead to destroy those abominations you so despise; I beseech you to grant m ethe Sun Domain, so that I can blast 'em to smithereens," why would Pelor refuse?

Maybe a better word than gift is privilege. The Cleric has Domain privileges. They are not rights. Privilege means that they are given with the consent and authorization of the deity, not by the entitlement of the Cleric.

Sure: but the deity normally trusts clerics to make the right choices. The spells are privileges, but deities don't say, "Dude, you chose Searing Light yesterday, don't ask me for Prayer today." As long as clerics are advancing the deity's mission, the deity lets them swap out spells. Why would they be different with domain powers?

Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

Really? I've sometimes seen people do this, but I never could. I can barely decide what I want to do level to level, much less have my PC's career planned out in advance. What you describe would hurt my suspension of disbelief a lot more than PCs who can change their focus areas-but maybe that's because I'm a Gen-Xer .

In the real world, people plan to be management (by going for an MBA), or a Doctor, or a Lawyer, or whatever.

Sure, some people cannot see beyond flipping burgers at McDonald's, but most of my players are way beyond that stage both in real life, and in the game.

You have an unusual sense of disbelief if you cannot understand the concept of developing a career path, either in or outside of the game.

Granted, many do not plan beyond their first PrC, but I have one or two players that even plan beyond that.

We tend to adhere to the wealth-by-level guidelines, so new PCs can choose optimal equipment as well (a problem not addressed by these rules). If they want a lot of scrolls, they can do that, but they don't need to.

Ah, a Player Entitlement game.

We adhere to the wealth by level guidelines as well, but as DM, I hand out items and wealth for a new PC (although I do allow them to craft one or two if they have the appropriate feat and ability to do so), just like I decide most of the in game items that all PCs have access to. The new PC does not choose them like he is going to the grocery store.

This is another advantage, at least in my game, for playing a PC from scratch. Some of their items are purchased/crafted/acquired due to their desires and efforts within game. The late blooming PC does not get this advantage.

Sure: but the deity normally trusts clerics to make the right choices. The spells are privileges, but deities don't say, "Dude, you chose Searing Light yesterday, don't ask me for Prayer today." As long as clerics are advancing the deity's mission, the deity lets them swap out spells. Why would they be different with domain powers?

Because the game does not allow for swapping out of Domains (until PHBII and even then it is optional).

I view Domains like Alignment (which I also tend to view basically as more or less set in stone). They are core components of that particular PC. Replacing them is like cutting off your arm and growing a claw in its place.

 

[Pielorinho]

You have an unusual sense of disbelief if you cannot understand the concept of developing a career path, either in or outside of the game.

:\

Ah, a Player Entitlement game.

Double- :\

Enough of that conversation, then.
Daniel

 

[Benimoto]

In the real world, people plan to be management (by going for an MBA), or a Doctor, or a Lawyer, or whatever.

Sure, some people cannot see beyond flipping burgers at McDonald's, but most of my players are way beyond that stage both in real life, and in the game.

But does every kid who wants to be an astronaut become one? I don't think the metaphor is even appropriate, since people are far more flexible than D&D characters.

Ah, a Player Entitlement game.

It's a player empowerment game, which according to the DMG 2 at least, is an important part of what D&D is about.

It sound like you like controlling most aspects of your game. I can see then how you're frustrated by the ever-expanding menu of feats and prestige classes. I can see particularly how things like immediate actions or retraining, which give players power in places where previously only the DM had power, could be particularly frustrating.

 

[KarinsDad]

It's a player empowerment game, which according to the DMG 2 at least, is an important part of what D&D is about.

So, as DM, do you purposely add only those magical items to the game which your players have previously indicated that they want to see? Or, do you only do this for brand new PCs who get to "purchase" whatever items that they want when they create the character?

If you do allow a new high level new PC to pick whatever items he wants, that is a MAJOR advantage that you are giving that PC (and player) which presumably the PCs that started out at the beginning of a campaign do not get.

That's not empowerment. That's inequity.

It sound like you like controlling most aspects of your game. I can see then how you're frustrated by the ever-expanding menu of feats and prestige classes. I can see particularly how things like immediate actions or retraining, which give players power in places where previously only the DM had power, could be particularly frustrating.

It's not a matter of control outside of balance control (is this feat, ability, or spell balanced?) and playability control (i.e. 10 books or so and the stuff inside them is manageable, 50 books and their contents are not).

I do not think that giving most spellcasters the equivalent of low level Quickened spells is necessarily balanced. Spell casters already have a huge edge at high level. IAs allow low level spell casters to get an extra action per round which leans balance towards spell casters at low to mid levels as well.

WotC learned its lesson with 3E Haste, fixed it, and then turned around and started adding in extra actions per round in various ways (like IAs and the variant Sorcerer in PHBII). This is not game balance. It's sales.

 

[Benimoto]

So, as DM, do you purposely add only those magical items to the game which your players have previously indicated that they want to see? Or, do you only do this for brand new PCs who get to "purchase" whatever items that they want when they create the character?

If you do allow a new high level new PC to pick whatever items he wants, that is a MAJOR advantage that you are giving that PC (and player) which presumably the PCs that started out at the beginning of a campaign do not get.

That's not empowerment. That's inequity.

I try to keep aware of that. Seeing as existing characters get a good portion of their wealth in liquid form (coins, gems, art) and that new characters are subject to roughly the same purchasing rules as existing ones, I don't think the inequity is big enough to pose a problem.

The general rule of thumb here is that new characters shouldn't outshine the existing ones, and I do what I can to stick to that.

It's not a matter of control outside of balance control (is this feat, ability, or spell balanced?) and playability control (i.e. 10 books or so and the stuff inside them is manageable, 50 books and their contents are not).

I do not think that giving most spellcasters the equivalent of low level Quickened spells is necessarily balanced. Spell casters already have a huge edge at high level. IAs allow low level spell casters to get an extra action per round which leans balance towards spell casters at low to mid levels as well.

WotC learned its lesson with 3E Haste, fixed it, and then turned around and started adding in extra actions per round in various ways (like IAs and the variant Sorcerer in PHBII). This is not game balance. It's sales.

I partially agree with you there. I don't think IAs imbalance the game. The effects they have are typically low-powered for their level, and so the characters pay for the power in one way or another.

The balance here is take the more powerful spell that you have to cast in advance (and use an an action).

I agree with you, that the main reason they added them to the game is to sell more books. In fact, in one of the Design & Development articles, they said that they added immediate and swift actions to create more "design space". That is, allow for more abilities to be added without necessarily being redundant with the others. That, to me, says that they added them so they could fill more books.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

So, as DM, do you purposely add only those magical items to the game which your players have previously indicated that they want to see?

Do you NOT do this?

My current character is a Fighter/Warmage. I spent my extra human feats and my fighter feats to get rapid shot and to be able to use a Greatbow with some skill. If I go through the remaining 15 levels of my "life" as a character and the GM never changes any of the loot in the adventure to be an upgraded Greatbow then thats a load of hooey.

DS