Picard Season 3

[Stalker0]

Another fun episode, though narratively a little weaker than the last couple.

Spoiler

• That was some Season 8 GoT teleporting in this episode. The titan made it to the museum, back it Daystrom, and still had time for a nice leisurely chat between Picard and Geordi (not a "Geordi I need this now now now time is of the essence" but a "hey lets talk about the kids for a bit")..... all in the span of an hour.
• While I personally don't mind it, I think there is going to be people miffed that Deanna has been relegated to the "damsel in distress" role, since she was often so narratively weak in the main show. Now at first it does seem convenient that they happen to have captured Will and then just happen to have Deanna, but on the flip side they did say they were going to check on all the places they could hide, Deanna would be a natural one. So if she isn't the only one they shook down, I can buy that.
• Up till now the cameos have mostly worked for me. Beverly starts us off, brings in Picard, Picard brings in his old buddy Will....check. Ok Worf gets caught up in the greater conspiracy, a little convenient but we can allow a feeeew contrivances. Alright Geordi leads the museum, allowing that as an option for them to use (otherwise they probably could never have gone there in the first place)....sure I'm on board. Data as the AI powering daystrom....that was just one convenience too far for me. I get we want the whole crew back together, but Data has died TWICE, let the poor android rest already.
• So did the security bypass actually work? On the one hand they weren't killed immediately, but security did get alerted to their Prescence. It's not clear what happened there.
• The whole "lets use the cloaking device" idea is cool....until you realize that many times in ST they have noted that older cloaking systems have weaknesses that can be detected by modern systems. Hell the enterprise has done so on several occasions. Its highly impractical that a cloaking system on a bird of prey that old would have done anything useful. If they had given our miracle worker Geordi some real time with it....maybe I could buy he "upgrades it", but he had like 5 minutes. Even Geordi isn't that good!
• Beverly is talking about Jack's condition like it won't really affect him for decades to come....but he is having full blown hallucinations right now! He literally killed people that he wasn't sure were the enemy. They are handwaving that far too much, especially considering how important Jack seems to be to the changelings.

Now on the positive side

• I appreciate the "father's conundrum" that Geordi goes through. When its your life on the line its one thing, but when its your daughters, its a whole different ballgame, so I appreciated that hesitation Geordi went through. He got there in the end though.
• The narrative with Jack having the same disease as Picard is an interesting bond, and its a true part of a son meeting their estranged father. You get some diamonds and you get some coal as part of the package.
• The nod to Voyager was nice for Seven. It was a little contrived that Jack who is "super interested in spaceships" wouldn't have heard of one of the most famous starships at this time (I mean the actual tale of Voyager would be an absolute legend at this point)....but its a minor point to give Seven a nostalgia moment.
• I felt the Father/Daughter energy with Geordi and his daughters. The whole "I used to crash things so we could fix them together" was a cute thing I could totally see a daughter do, especially with an important dad that was probably away far too much.
• Shaw geeking out at meeting Geordi was great

 

[Rabulias]

Spoiler

While I personally don't mind it, I think there is going to be people miffed that Deanna has been relegated to the "damsel in distress" role, since she was often so narratively weak in the main show. Now at first it does seem convenient that they happen to have captured Will and then just happen to have Deanna, but on the flip side they did say they were going to check on all the places they could hide, Deanna would be a natural one. So if she isn't the only one they shook down, I can buy that.

Spoiler

I did not like that much either, but I think it was more to protect the plot. I think Deanna will be the only semi-reliable way to detect the new Changelings.

Spoiler

Shaw geeking out at meeting Geordi was great

Spoiler

It was a fun moment, and it makes sense with his engineering background.

 

[Stalker0]

Alright I'm calling it now:

Spoiler

Worf goes back to the museum and picks up the Defiant to go save Riker

Lets go!

 

[MarkB]

Another fun episode, though narratively a little weaker than the last couple.

Spoiler

• That was some Season 8 GoT teleporting in this episode. The titan made it to the museum, back it Daystrom, and still had time for a nice leisurely chat between Picard and Geordi (not a "Geordi I need this now now now time is of the essence" but a "hey lets talk about the kids for a bit")..... all in the span of an hour.
• While I personally don't mind it, I think there is going to be people miffed that Deanna has been relegated to the "damsel in distress" role, since she was often so narratively weak in the main show. Now at first it does seem convenient that they happen to have captured Will and then just happen to have Deanna, but on the flip side they did say they were going to check on all the places they could hide, Deanna would be a natural one. So if she isn't the only one they shook down, I can buy that.
• Up till now the cameos have mostly worked for me. Beverly starts us off, brings in Picard, Picard brings in his old buddy Will....check. Ok Worf gets caught up in the greater conspiracy, a little convenient but we can allow a feeeew contrivances. Alright Geordi leads the museum, allowing that as an option for them to use (otherwise they probably could never have gone there in the first place)....sure I'm on board. Data as the AI powering daystrom....that was just one convenience too far for me. I get we want the whole crew back together, but Data has died TWICE, let the poor android rest already.
• So did the security bypass actually work? On the one hand they weren't killed immediately, but security did get alerted to their Prescence. It's not clear what happened there.
• The whole "lets use the cloaking device" idea is cool....until you realize that many times in ST they have noted that older cloaking systems have weaknesses that can be detected by modern systems. Hell the enterprise has done so on several occasions. Its highly impractical that a cloaking system on a bird of prey that old would have done anything useful. If they had given our miracle worker Geordi some real time with it....maybe I could buy he "upgrades it", but he had like 5 minutes. Even Geordi isn't that good!
• Beverly is talking about Jack's condition like it won't really affect him for decades to come....but he is having full blown hallucinations right now! He literally killed people that he wasn't sure were the enemy. They are handwaving that far too much, especially considering how important Jack seems to be to the changelings.

Now on the positive side

• I appreciate the "father's conundrum" that Geordi goes through. When its your life on the line its one thing, but when its your daughters, its a whole different ballgame, so I appreciated that hesitation Geordi went through. He got there in the end though.
• The narrative with Jack having the same disease as Picard is an interesting bond, and its a true part of a son meeting their estranged father. You get some diamonds and you get some coal as part of the package.
• The nod to Voyager was nice for Seven. It was a little contrived that Jack who is "super interested in spaceships" wouldn't have heard of one of the most famous starships at this time (I mean the actual tale of Voyager would be an absolute legend at this point)....but its a minor point to give Seven a nostalgia moment.
• I felt the Father/Daughter energy with Geordi and his daughters. The whole "I used to crash things so we could fix them together" was a cute thing I could totally see a daughter do, especially with an important dad that was probably away far too much.
• Shaw geeking out at meeting Geordi was great

Spoiler

Regarding transit speed, when they first comandeer the Titan it's mentioned that its cruising speed is warp 9.99, that's fast enough to jump around very fast indeed.

Regarding the cloaking device, we have multiple examples in canon of old cloaking devices being perfectly functional against modern detection. The TNG episode The Emissary has an old Klingon cruiser potentially causing trouble, being undetectable if it cloaks, and the Lower Decks episode Veritas has an old-style Romulan warbird stolen from a museum used to successfully infiltrate Romulan territory.

 

[Stalker0]

Spoiler

Regarding transit speed, when they first comandeer the Titan it's mentioned that its cruising speed is warp 9.99, that's fast enough to jump around very fast indeed.

Regarding the cloaking device, we have multiple examples in canon of old cloaking devices being perfectly functional against modern detection. The TNG episode The Emissary has an old Klingon cruiser potentially causing trouble, being undetectable if it cloaks, and the Lower Decks episode Veritas has an old-style Romulan warbird stolen from a museum used to successfully infiltrate Romulan territory.

Spoiler

This brings up an interesting question. Since the Romulan Star Federation is effectively "gone" is the Treaty of Algernon still in effect? Seems like Star Fleet should be opening the floodgates on cloaking tech.

 

[bloodtide]

Well..reunion. Though now we got way too many characters for most of them to do anything.

The split between the family show and the End of the Universe show is a bit jarring....like it's two different shows. And it really cheapens both. Like the Universe will end in a couple days, so lets sit down and talk about family stuff. Makes the Universe ending seem pointless, the only "important thing" is family. But if "family" is so important, why have these characters been jerks to each other for Decades and only get together in a wacky random contrivance once the Universe is going to end.

Also, short show syndrome means they get chased by Random Ship # 1 and Random Ship #2. You could at least say they are the USS Chameleon, USS Doppelganger and the USS Loki........

Spoiler: Stuff

Wow...a genesis device!
Er.....James T. Kirk?
A happy fun ball tribble? I thought they were all dead?
And...er....Data? So......wait. They took the program of B4, Lore and Data and put them in an Old Soong type body?!?! And this is the super awesome guard of Daystrom?

And ok....so here is the family things again. So NO ONE at all cares that Lore is a sentient being equal to Data, he just vanishes into a Starfleet vault and EVERYONE is just like good.

B4 hangs around for a bit.....then vanishes too? And no one asked about that?

And...so was that the real Moriaity? Or just a Data made copy?

And the changelings took....the greatest weapon in the universe.....Picards dead body? Er, why was that at Daystrom again?

And sadly, Troi as the damsel in distress. Wonder if the bad guys got the Riker kid too?

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Spoiler

The nod to Voyager was nice for Seven. It was a little contrived that Jack who is "super interested in spaceships" wouldn't have heard of one of the most famous starships at this time (I mean the actual tale of Voyager would be an absolute legend at this point)....but its a minor point to give Seven a nostalgia moment.

Spoiler

I was briefly bothered by that, but he did say he was specifically a fan of the classic ships, and I believe they just had him not recognize it on sight, not say that he had never heard of Voyager. I think everyone in the Federation would know the story of Voyager, but recognizing it on sight is a different matter.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think we can probably spare the spoiler blocks lol, given the topic of the thread, it's a bit ludicrous and not something followed in other show discussion threads. Just don't click on it if you haven't seen this week's episode - we all know when they come out!

A few points:

Re: "Damsel in distress" - Risibly premature to be applying that trope, frankly.

We have no idea of the situation or how it will unfold. It's actively unhelpful to drag out every disempowering trope about female characters the very second a female character is in any way in peril or hurt, it's not big or clever. Last week we had various numpties trying (in some cases for clout, so it wasn't even honest) trying to claim Ro Laren was "fridged", a truly ludicrous and insulting notion given she intentionally did the ol' heroic martyr thing to buy them time, something countless characters have done before that.

So let's see what happens. Given how aware of TNG's past the show is, I will be somewhat surprised if Troi is some sort of "damsel" here - she's not actually in any more "distress" than Riker, either.

Regarding the cloaking device, we have multiple examples in canon of old cloaking devices being perfectly functional against modern detection. The TNG episode The Emissary has an old Klingon cruiser potentially causing trouble, being undetectable if it cloaks, and the Lower Decks episode Veritas has an old-style Romulan warbird stolen from a museum used to successfully infiltrate Romulan territory.

Correct. There's nothing to suggest older cloaking devices just "don't work". On the contrary we've had tons of times where they do. There are absolutely methods for detecting them, but they tend to rely on knowing that a cloaked ship is in the area, and possibly whether the cloak is Klingon or Romulan, and from what era.

I think everyone in the Federation would know the story of Voyager, but recognizing it on sight is a different matter.

The Federation is hundreds or thousands of worlds, with trillions of members. For the vast majority of the population, a story like that of Voyager would not be hugely interesting or memorable. It might be on the news for a couple of nights because of where it came back from, but it wouldn't be some "story everyone knows". Don't confuse the Federation and Starfleet - that's like confusing the US and the US Navy. Space travel nerds would know the story for sure - and it seems like Jack is one of those - but most people? Nah.

The split between the family show and the End of the Universe show is a bit jarring....like it's two different shows. And it really cheapens both. Like the Universe will end in a couple days, so lets sit down and talk about family stuff. Makes the Universe ending seem pointless, the only "important thing" is family. But if "family" is so important, why have these characters been jerks to each other for Decades and only get together in a wacky random contrivance once the Universe is going to end.

What on earth are you talking about? Unless you've got some massive spoilers, this isn't an "end of the universe" show.

 

[MarkB]

I do wish I had a better idea when this show was set compared to Star Trek Prodigy, because there are some potential continuity snarls.

On the one hand, the Defiant was very much still in active service at the end of Prodigy, but on the other hand the events of that series should have seriously warned Starfleet off from the degree of ship-to-ship comms integration referenced in this episode.

 

[Mallus]

What on earth are you talking about? Unless you've got some massive spoilers, this isn't an "end of the universe" show.

Also, family is a super-important theme in TNG.

What's the episode directly after "Best of Both Worlds, part 2"?

"Family".

(and I seem to recall a family crisis in the middle of Wrath of Khan...)

 

[MarkB]

Also, family is a super-important theme in TNG.

What's episode directly after "Best of Both Worlds, part 2"?

"Family".

(and I seem to recall a family crisis in the middle of Wrath of Khan...)

It's pretty much standard practice in any drama to provide some personal stakes to go along with the larger ones.

 

[Mallus]

It's pretty much standard practice in any drama to provide some personal stakes to go along with the larger ones.

True.

And TNG embodied that in a fantastic way; a ship equipped with metaphoric nuclear weapons and a literal kindergarten.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

The Federation is hundreds or thousands of worlds, with trillions of members. For the vast majority of the population, a story like that of Voyager would not be hugely interesting or memorable. It might be on the news for a couple of nights because of where it came back from, but it wouldn't be some "story everyone knows". Don't confuse the Federation and Starfleet - that's like confusing the US and the US Navy. Space travel nerds would know the story for sure - and it seems like Jack is one of those - but most people? Nah.

Maybe. Personally I think it's more likely that their media obnoxiously obsessed over "our lost crew in the Delta quadrant" for a couple years, that Voyager was an obligatory thing for every Trivial Pursuit edition for the next half century or so to have a question about, and that referencing "the Voyager incident" became a standard part of any entertainment playing on 2370s nostalgia.

Really what I'm getting at is that, unlike our other hero ships, Voyager has a basic story, and is famous for one thing, with some superlatives attached, and that's the sort of thing that humans like the remember. If there's any Starfleet ship whose name would pass into common knowledge, that would be the one. At least that's what I think the case would be amongst humans, I don't know much about the memory habits of other Federation races.

 

[Ryujin]

Maybe. Personally I think it's more likely that their media obnoxiously obsessed over "our lost crew in the Delta quadrant" for a couple years, that Voyager was an obligatory thing for every Trivial Pursuit edition for the next half century or so to have a question about, and that referencing "the Voyager incident" became a standard part of any entertainment playing on 2370s nostalgia.

Really what I'm getting at is that, unlike our other hero ships, Voyager has a basic story, and is famous for one thing, with some superlatives attached, and that's the sort of thing that humans like the remember. If there's any Starfleet ship whose name would pass into common knowledge, that would be the one. At least that's what I think the case would be amongst humans, I don't know much about the memory habits of other Federation races.

Sort of like how many people know the name of Shackleton's expeditionary vessel, even today, off the top of their heads. You go to a place that few, if any have gone before, and you tend to be remembered. Then there's the famous holodeck programme "Photons Be Free", that changed how holo entities were treated. they were definitely in media.

 

[MarkB]

Maybe. Personally I think it's more likely that their media obnoxiously obsessed over "our lost crew in the Delta quadrant" for a couple years, that Voyager was an obligatory thing for every Trivial Pursuit edition for the next half century or so to have a question about, and that referencing "the Voyager incident" became a standard part of any entertainment playing on 2370s nostalgia.

Really what I'm getting at is that, unlike our other hero ships, Voyager has a basic story, and is famous for one thing, with some superlatives attached, and that's the sort of thing that humans like the remember. If there's any Starfleet ship whose name would pass into common knowledge, that would be the one. At least that's what I think the case would be amongst humans, I don't know much about the memory habits of other Federation races.

At the same time, though, it's one amongst dozens of Intrepid-class vessels, and we don't know how famous and storied any of them are. It might simply not be the only famous vessel of its class out there.

Honestly, the most surprising thing is that there was enough left of Voyager to stick in a museum after Starfleet Intelligence and the Corps of Engineers got through with it, given all the Borg tech and future tech it was packed with by the time it got home.

 

[Rabulias]

Also, family is a super-important theme in TNG.

What's the episode directly after "Best of Both Worlds, part 2"?

"Family".

And right after that one we got the episode titled "Brothers," dealing with Data and Lore, whor are kinda like family.

 

[Stalker0]

but on the other hand the events of that series should have seriously warned Starfleet off from the degree of ship-to-ship comms integration referenced in this episode.

Not to mention the borg themselves. One of the key ways the enterprise beat the Borg after Wolf 359 was sending a virus through their interconnected network.

Though to be fair I can hardly blame them. I mean look at our civilization today. We are constantly connecting more and more, even though we know it vastly increases the security risk, as you get in the door once and you have access to arsenals of resources. Its hard to argue security in the face of efficiency.

 

[bloodtide]

What on earth are you talking about? Unless you've got some massive spoilers, this isn't an "end of the universe" show.

The Changeling plan is to destroy the Federation, right? The fiendish plot is to get "all" of Starfleet there for Founders Day, then blow up the Sol system and all the ships. No ships equals no Starfleet equals no Federation.

And...um....somehow use Picards real old dead body and Pciards son.......for something?

Also, family is a super-important theme in TNG.

What's the episode directly after "Best of Both Worlds, part 2"?

"Family".

Though that is my point. So when the Borg cube was zooming towards Earth, did anyone go to a holographic bar and talk about family for a while? Did Riker get a sudden call about a surprise son he had? After the battle of Wolf359, did Crusher fall in love with a ghost?

No...none of that happened DURING the crisis. Afterwards, yes. That is when it should happen.

(and I seem to recall a family crisis in the middle of Wrath of Khan...)

Except that 'middle' was all a nice plan to win by Kirk and Spock. When Picard just wanders into holo ten forward, again, he is just being old grandpa Picard.


USS Voyager is a great story: ship lost on the other side of the galaxy makes it home. It's the "Apollo 13" of the 24th century, or at least the "Sully".

Wonder if we will ever get the story of the USS New Jersey? I guess she is the original Constitution class that Picard mentioned was in the Fleet Museum back in TNGs Relics. Wonder if the New Jersey was named after the WW2 Battleship? (yea, I know in the real world it was named for the showrunner guy as he is from New Jersey).

 

[Hussar]

Ok, fun episode, but, sheesh, the nostalgia wank is getting a bit thick. I mean, holy crap, I get the power of nostalgia, but, Picard is turning into a Clip Show. Literally.

Ok, fine, I get that this is wrapping everything up in a neat little bow and is just massive amounts of fan service, but, good grief.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ok, fun episode, but, sheesh, the nostalgia wank is getting a bit thick. I mean, holy crap, I get the power of nostalgia, but, Picard is turning into a Clip Show. Literally.

Ok, fine, I get that this is wrapping everything up in a neat little bow and is just massive amounts of fan service, but, good grief.

Seems to be what people want.

I don't get all the references as I didn't watch Voyager.