Pineapple Express: Someone Is Wrong on the Internet?

[Reynard]

Comedies also have a structure, but an RPG game full of people quoting Monty Python and/or memes (depending on their age) is generally a pretty good fit.

I was more thinking about how a TPK represents an extremely grim reversal of expectations.

 

[FrogReaver]

When we are correct, we don't learn much that we didn't already know. No new truth is discovered from correctness. So, if the world is better if we don't make mistakes, it follows that the world is better if we don't learn much.

Thus, if he is wrong, then we are "better" in lives of brutish ignorance.

Hmmm soo… May We be the most ignorant so that We can learn the most.

In either case sounds like brutish ignorance wins

 

[overgeeked]

Tragedies aren't happy stories until a surprise sad ending, though. The entire structure of the story typically arcs towards doom, with foreshadowing, etc.

Fair. But considering the typical D&D campaign is soaked in blood, they're not exactly free of tragedy either. I don't see "we lost a fight and died" as a surprise. The PCs spend a dozen levels massacring everything in their path. They're bound to take an L themselves.

In an RPG, this might be reflected in the characters (or the DM) saying "sure, we're ready to take on the BBEG" when a third party could see that's clearly not true, but if we're truly leaning on the collective story aspect of RPGs, it can't just be down to bad luck at the end. (And this goes for the players, too: If you don't want the campaign to turn out to be a tragedy, don't go into a fight that you might win. Kobayashi Maru that thing.)

If dice are involved, you might win. If you don't want the dice to come into it, play around the dice by old-school stacking advantages do dramatically in your favor there's no need to roll or simply remove the dice and don't pretend there's a game element.

 

[overgeeked]

Comedies also have a structure, but an RPG game full of people quoting Monty Python and/or memes (depending on their age) is generally a pretty good fit.

Ish. It's more about tone and character.

 

[Umbran]

If RPGs are collaborative storytelling games, why is tragedy and/or failure not an acceptable option? Not all stories have happy endings.

Ah, but authored stories aren't randomly happy or unhappy endings! The author doesn't roll dice to determine where their story is going to go. Those endings are chosen and specifically built for effect. So, that unhappy ending is engineered for its impact, and thus the story is likely to be in some sense satisfying without being happy.

Randomly occurring unhappy endings will only be satisfying by accident.

Who is coming to the table hoping for an unsatisfying experience?

Which is not to say that tragedy and/or failure are not sometimes an acceptable option. But many will want to have buffers around them to lead to a satisfying result.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Well, you may be right. But those people are saying more about themselves than about you.

I pretty regularly acknowledge errors (my usual preferred phrase is "I stand corrected"); I just don't kid myself that people won't weaponize it, and suggesting that people won't seems, at best, over-optimistic.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Ah, but authored stories aren't randomly happy or unhappy endings! The author doesn't roll dice to determine where their story is going to go. Those endings are chosen and specifically built for effect. So, that unhappy ending is engineered for its impact, and thus the story is likely to be in some sense satisfying without being happy.

Randomly occurring unhappy endings will only be satisfying by accident.

Who is coming to the table hoping for an unsatisfying experience?

Which is not to say that tragedy and/or failure are not sometimes an acceptable option. But many will want to have buffers around them to lead to a satisfying result.

In addition, some people want the kind of ending, at least in rough, they want. Just because tragedy is a legitimate dramatic end doesn't mean its what someone wants; not everyone enjoys that in other fiction, why should games be different?

 

[Umbran]

In addition, some people want the kind of ending, at least in rough, they want. Just because tragedy is a legitimate dramatic end doesn't mean its what someone wants; not everyone enjoys that in other fiction, why should games be different?

Totally. Nobody is required to actively want all legitimate genres or dramatic forms or ends. You get to pick your fiction, games, and ends much like you get to pick your pizza toppings.

 

[Umbran]

I pretty regularly acknowledge errors (my usual preferred phrase is "I stand corrected"); I just don't kid myself that people won't weaponize it, and suggesting that people won't seems, at best, over-optimistic.

The understanding that it is okay to be wrong needs to be for both the person who is wrong AND the people around them.

I must recognize that it is okay for me to be wrong.
You must recognize that it is okay for me to be wrong.

Repeat for every "I" and "you".

 

[Umbran]

Hmmm soo… May We be the most ignorant so that We can learn the most.

In either case sounds like brutish ignorance wins

No. There is always ignorance, as the Universe is a very big place.

We just don't have to be brutish about it.