Pissed about the reduction of the Spell Focus Feats

[Grog]

The problem was one that only became apparent using twinked-out characters, prestige classes and feats (GSF). The major issue I have with it is similar to that of dcollins'- the core rules are being rebalanced (underpowered) in order to remedy supplements. The core rules were already balanced, the supplements were not. However, rather than fix the supplements, WotC downgraded the core rules in order to try to bring the supplements into line.

Yep, that's exactly what they did, and it's a really dumb way to try to balance things. They should have never let things get out of hand in the supplements in the first place. There was nothing wrong with the +2 DC from Spell Focus on its own - it was only when you combined it with a bunch of other feats and PrC abilities that it led to astronomically high DCs.

At top-level, therefore, the average person has a 40% chance to save against an average spell. Was it particularly broken to reduce that chance to 30% for one school? If a wizard used a given school half of the time (pretty specialised), and it was a save negates type spell (optimal for SF), then he has increased his offensive capabilities by one-eighth at the cost of a feat.

And don't forget that at top-level, a great many of the opponents a wizard is going to face will have SR. And since SRs seem to be getting an across-the-board boost in 3.5, the odds of a wizard affecting a monster with a spell will be considerably lower than what you listed - especially if Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration get a similar nerf.

My group will probably house rule it back to +2, and I'll definitely do it in any campaign I run. At +1 DC, there's no way I'd ever take the feat unless I needed it to qualify for a PrC or I wanted it for role-playing flavor (the "I'm a master of illusions" type character).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Grog

And don't forget that at top-level, a great many of the opponents a wizard is going to face will have SR.

Where are people getting this from?
The osyluth (bone devil) experienced a CR increase and an SR decrease.

The pit fiend also has an accurate SR for a 20th-level creature.

 

[Grog]

Where are people getting this from?
The osyluth (bone devil) experienced a CR increase and an SR decrease.

The pit fiend also has an accurate SR for a 20th-level creature.

Well, the Titan's SR went up from 27 to 32. But my point was that, as a wizard gains levels, he becomes more and more likely to run into foes with SR. The vast majority of high-CR monsters have SR (demons, devils, dragons, titans, etc).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Well, the Titan's SR went up from 27 to 32.

Again, an accurate SR. Save-or-die/consequences spells are only really available at the higher levels, so obviously higher-CR creatures should have defenses against them. It's preferable to giving huge numbers of creatures "Deliverance from Death" that the Fiend Folio deva seems to enjoy, or the storm giant's freedom of movement. (The storm giant is the best challenge out of any giant I've seen, solely for this reason. Now if it had a higher AC and See Invisibility, it would be top-notch.)

 

[Grog]

Again, an accurate SR.

Only if you believe that a standard wizard (i.e., one without spell penetration feats or spell power) should always have a 50% chance of spell failure when faced with SR on a monster of CR equal to his level. At any rate, even if it's an "accurate" SR, it still reduces the chance of the wizard affecting his foe with a spell considerably.

Save-or-die/consequences spells are only really available at the higher levels, so obviously higher-CR creatures should have defenses against them.

The titan has a tremendous bonus to Fort saves, which is a pretty effective defense right there.

 

[Malin Genie]

I think that the problem with the Spell Focus Feats is that they don't make the caster better with spells of the chosen school; they make the caster better with spells of that chosen school which happen to have a save.

So for some schools (abjuration, divination) where the proportion of 'save' spells is low (although this might change if scry now allows a save!) it was not a good Feat to take even at +2. OTOH Evocation and Transmutation have a lot of 'save' spells, and for that matter a lot of 'save' spells which affect multiple enemies, and so even at +1 it will still be a useful Feat.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Only if you believe that a standard wizard (i.e., one without spell penetration feats or spell power) should always have a 50% chance of spell failure when faced with SR on a monster of CR equal to his level. At any rate, even if it's an "accurate" SR, it still reduces the chance of the wizard affecting his foe with a spell considerably.

Where do people get this idea that a spellcaster is supposed to end an encounter in one round from anyway? A fighter can only do that by resorting to a broken item (vorpal - I'll bet money this is being nerfed) and he has to spend his resources (hit points) as well.

The titan has a tremendous bonus to Fort saves, which is a pretty effective defense right there.

That isn't going to save him from Will-save spells, waves of exhaustion (a bit embarrasing for a creature with a well-spring of vitality) or Reflex save-or-consequences spells. His good save only saves him from roughly one third of the save-or-consequences spells in a wizard's arsenal.

I'll be happy if I never see a creature like the CR 15 Lernean hydra ... with it's might Will save of +4.

Half of the problem is monster design ... far too many monsters have wimpy ACs and wimpy saves. Of course, a full-round attack is a lot less effective than a save-or-consequences spell.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Only if you believe that a standard wizard (i.e., one without spell penetration feats or spell power) should always have a 50% chance of spell failure when faced with SR on a monster of CR equal to his level.

A "standard" wizard without Spell Penetration deserves what he gets in combat with a spell-resistant creature. Enough said.

 

[LordAO]

If they feel that the spell DC increase was too much, fine. But they should give it something else as well, like a +1 caster level with that school or something. That would be pretty cool.

 

[Marshall]

A "standard" wizard without Spell Penetration deserves what he gets in combat with a spell-resistant creature. Enough said.

So every Wizard in your world has Spell Penetration, GSP, SF(Evoke), SF(Trans), SF(Ench) and one or two GSFs?

Does every single Wizard need to take Spell Focuses and Penetrations? Does any Wiz that spends his feats on MM or IC die horribly?

Are you really saying that there is only one way to build an effective Wizard?

Why, Yes! I do believe you are!

Nerfing SF to +1 just reduces the spellcasters feat selection and spell selection. Bad, Bad, bad idea.