"Planar Handbook" - completlely useless?

[Larcen]

The thing about books that a DM can use isn't "Wow, a cool new prestige class I can use to spend an hour building an NPC." It is "Cool, this has just the handy little table for me to come up with random [insert person/place/name/object/etc.] on the fly." As a DM, I want something akin to the 1st edition DMG - oodles of tables in back to come up with stuff on the fly. I *still* use the 1st edition DMG in my 3.5 game because of this. ...

Funny you should say that, I just bought the "d20 Toolbox" book at Borders yesterday. I actually never heard of it til then and I really like the idea of the book; no rules, all charts. Looks a lot like what your describing. I am pretty sure I'll get some use of it the next time I DM.

 

[dead]

Actually, one thing that irritates me about the Planar Handbook is that it's touted as a "Player's Guide to the Planes" but is nothing of the sort. It's really a DM's book. Why? Because it has monsters and magic items in it for a start (you're players aren't supposed to be looking at such things) and, secondly, your DM will have to OK all of the new Prestige Classes, spells, feats, etc. so he/she will probably have to make the purchase, too.

That being said, the Planar Handbook is very, very dissappointing. In a book of this sort, I think WotC should compile ALL of the good old planar races: Genesai, Githyanki, Giztherai, etc. into one tome (and they don't need to keep expanding the races with new stuff). Also, if you're gonna present PrCs for the Factions, then why not present them ALL for easy and convienient reference?

Anyway, that's my small rant.

 

[Nisarg]

Funny you should say that, I just bought the "d20 Toolbox" book at Borders yesterday. I actually never heard of it til then and I really like the idea of the book; no rules, all charts. Looks a lot like what your describing. I am pretty sure I'll get some use of it the next time I DM.

Toolbox has without a doubt been THE most useful book I've bought in years, in terms of percentage of game-playing sessions where the book actually gets used for something.

Its an excellent book, and I wish there were more like it around.

Nisarg

 

[Nisarg]

Actually, one thing that irritates me about the Planar Handbook is that it's touted as a "Player's Guide to the Planes" but is nothing of the sort. It's really a DM's book. Why? Because it has monsters and magic items in it for a start (you're players aren't supposed to be looking at such things) and, secondly, your DM will have to OK all of the new Prestige Classes, spells, feats, etc. so he/she will probably have to make the purchase, too.

You know, you'd think having magic items and monsters would make it a DM's book.. but it doesn't.

Prestige classes are just "advanced character classes" these days, power-ups for people to power-game.
More feats? Power gaming. For the players to manipulate and force the DM to give him an overpowered ability.
Magic items? stuff to cajole the DM into getting.
Monsters? Well, thats' sort of for the DM, but players will read all their powers to know exactly how to kill them.

D&D's greatest problem these days is the ever-increasing power-creep. You can't get a new book (WoTC or 3rd party) without the back cover saying "100 new feats! 22 new Prestige Classes! 59 new high-powered races!! 2000 new epic-level magic items!!"

Its this sort of thing that's going to ultimately make the game unplayable...

Nisarg

 

[Mouseferatu]

Its this sort of thing that's going to ultimately make the game unplayable...

Oh, please. You know what's going to make the game unplayable? When people decide to stop playing.

DMs have the power--I'd say even the obligation--to decide what they're allowing and what they aren't. If you're running a "core books only" game, it doesn't matter what else is out there.

In most of my campaigns, I allow anything from the core books (and the campaign book, if we're using a published setting). Anything and everything else must be cleared with me on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes I say yes, sometimes no. And you know how much extra work it makes me for me? Almost none; as much effort as it takes to read the item/class in question (if I don't already know it) and say "yes" or "no."

I mean, really people. I'm tired of prestige classes my own self. You know what I do? I skim those sections in new books, looking for cool ideas, and otherwise ignore them. If a book is just new crunch, I probably won't buy it. But if it's got crunch and flavor, I can always find something useful.

 

[Glyfair]

DMs may only account for 1/4 of the Market, but in my experience it's the DMs who buy 3/4 of the books.

However, that doesn't help sell a product. If you market a book to a small percentage of the market, it won't help if they buy more. Each DM is still going to buy only one copy of a book. Sure, more books might sell to DMs. However, that won't help a single book make a profit.

More books with less sales...sounds like one of the reasons for the OGL and d20 license to me. Let the companies without much overhead and less driving need for a profit make those books and focus on the books with a large market.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Oh, please. You know what's going to make the game unplayable? When people decide to stop playing.

DMs have the power--I'd say even the obligation--to decide what they're allowing and what they aren't. If you're running a "core books only" game, it doesn't matter what else is out there.

In most of my campaigns, I allow anything from the core books (and the campaign book, if we're using a published setting). Anything and everything else must be cleared with me on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes I say yes, sometimes no. And you know how much extra work it makes me for me? Almost none; as much effort as it takes to read the item/class in question (if I don't already know it) and say "yes" or "no."

I mean, really people. I'm tired of prestige classes my own self. You know what I do? I skim those sections in new books, looking for cool ideas, and otherwise ignore them. If a book is just new crunch, I probably won't buy it. But if it's got crunch and flavor, I can always find something useful.

A few points:

1) A lot of books have too many PrCs. CW is the worst. You're wasting money getting that book.

2) "Playtesting" a PrC, item or what not in your head doesn't always work. You can say "ok, I'll allow this PrC" and then get upset when it turns out to be broken, and you just didn't see it in time. Now you have to nerf a player's character when he's had the PrC for three levels.

3) You wouldn't know it from these boards "What, no, DMs aren't allowed to ban PrCs." I was amazed to see the quote I paraphrased in other threads. (Where's the roll-eyes smilie?)

 

[Mouseferatu]

A few points:

1) A lot of books have too many PrCs. CW is the worst. You're wasting money getting that book.

I actually like some of the PrCs from that book. But I've gotten the most use out of the alternate core classes, the non-magic-using paladin/ranger, the feats, and the equipment.

2) "Playtesting" a PrC, item or what not in your head doesn't always work. You can say "ok, I'll allow this PrC" and then get upset when it turns out to be broken, and you just didn't see it in time. Now you have to nerf a player's character when he's had the PrC for three levels.

Which is why I tell the player in advance "I'll give it a shot, but if I decide it's not balanced down the road, we're going to have to rethink it."

3) You wouldn't know it from these boards "What, no, DMs aren't allowed to ban PrCs." I was amazed to see the quote I paraphrased in other threads. (Where's the roll-eyes smilie?)

Yeesh. Thankfully, I've never had one of those players. If I ever do, though, I can guarantee you that he'll be changing his tune if he wants to keep playing with me.

Don't get me wrong. I prefer books that focus largely on other matters, and devote only a moderate amount of attention to new feats/PrCs/spells/etc. I just don't think those that don't are necessarily a bad idea or useless.

 

[fanboy2000]

I'm suprised to hear that...

I don't have the Planer Handbook just yet, but I've seen a number of WotC DM books this year. Also, I've seen inseration in both Complete books.

As a Dm I was glad they gave a sample character for all their PrCs. I don't allow all the PrCs in Complete Warrior for flavor reasons, but its nice to have an NPC for the one's I do allow. I also loved the Warrior Pantheon. It inspired me to write a creation mythology for them and utilize some of the guidelines in Deities and Demigods. The section on fantasy warfare was good for me, because I know nothing about real world and don't care to, but an overview of fantasy warfare for D&D is right up my ally.

Complete Divine wasn't a complete desaster for me for one reason, Other Greyhawk Deities and Monster Deities. I love the Greyhawk pantheon, and it's great for tinkering with, this section is worth $29.95 USD for that alone. I also liked the planer ally tables. I can do without the spells. (I still think Miasma is broken.) But, I don't care.

Map Folio, at $10, was worth the convience. I've used four of the maps in their already. Map Folio II says the maps are all new, so it should be even better.

Races of Stone looks like it has some great ideas in it. I just ran a Gnome wedding, and I would have liked Races of Stone's day in life of Gnomes section before running it. What I came up with wasn't as inspired as it could have been.

And of course, Monster Manual III is comming out, that's a DM only book if there ever was one. I don't know about you, but reading a monster entry gives me all sorts of ideas for great encounters. (Not nessary combat ones either.)

And if Unearthed Arcana didn't spark your imagination, I'm not sure what will.

From a non-WotC perspective Arcana Unearthed from Monte Cook was touted as an alternet PH, but really it's an idea generator for DMs and players alike.

[Toolbox is] an excellent book, and I wish there were more like it around.

Well Nisarg, It looks like we agree on something after all.

 

[MerricB]

How interesting. A complaint about a book that clearly says that it's a Player's Guide that it doesn't help the DM enough. Really?