"Planar Handbook" - completlely useless?

Incenjucar said:
Someone asked what would have made the PlHB able to make PSers not unhappy:

1) Keep PS out of it. That's right. The easiest way to have made PSers not annoyed (Sad, maybe, but not annoyed) at the book would be to have left the setting the heck alone. There is no reason to shove Sigil and other PS material on to the original Greyhawk Great Wheel. They're two different cosmology sets. Keeps PSers from being insulted

I have to agree with this. As someone who really loved Planescape, seeing half-assed bits and pieces of the setting scattered throughout the 3.x books makes the bile rise in my throat. If it doesn't sell well enough to merit its own book, so be it, but don't pick the carcass clean. As I've said before, the setting is apparently good enough to stripmine, but not enough to publish as a whole.
Don't try to call it an homage, or a "nod-of-the-head" to PS fans, let's just call it what it is WotC; bait. It's a shiny sticker on the books that says, "Planescape Fans, Buy Me!" That sort of treatment only leads to insulted, dissatisfied fans all around.
What WotC is doing with Planescape material now is the worst kind of necrophilia. Do something proper with it or let it die...

Note: I know plenty of planar material existed before Planescape, but I'm sure we all know the difference between that stuff and what I'll call, for want of a better term, Planescape flavored Intellectual Property.
 

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i think one of the things that is bugging me more and more with the new releases... is size.

they are getting smaller and smaller and the price is staying high.

they should go to softcover if they are going to release things this size.

the Planar Handbook and Serpent Kingdoms are small.

Races of Stone isn't much bigger.

neither is Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, etc...


yes the core books were bigger with the revision but things since then have just shrunk.
 

Incenjucar said:
It has been officially stated that WotC wants to move away from modrons. Fine. Whatever. They could at least have officially included them in a paragraph blurb, as being busy consolodating power or whatever while the ant people run around the gears doing evil. Hell, they could have gotten ahold of one of their better artists and tried to get a version that fewer people would dub 'silly'.
OK, I gotta ask....why are people so attached to the Modrons, anyhow?

In AD&D, they were (iirc) the goofy shape-people, right? The ones shaped like different polyhedrons? Did anyone actually like/use them?

In 2e, under Planescape, I guess, they became....what? Steampunk, Clockwork, Robotic versions of the same? Can someone explain to me what their appeal is? Is it just the law aspect? Some folks seem really attached to them, and I'm trying to understand the appeal.
 

WizarDru said:
OK, I gotta ask....why are people so attached to the Modrons, anyhow?

In AD&D, they were (iirc) the goofy shape-people, right? The ones shaped like different polyhedrons? Did anyone actually like/use them?

In 2e, under Planescape, I guess, they became....what? Steampunk, Clockwork, Robotic versions of the same? Can someone explain to me what their appeal is? Is it just the law aspect? Some folks seem really attached to them, and I'm trying to understand the appeal.
I hate them. They were too goofy.
 

WizarDru said:
OK, I gotta ask....why are people so attached to the Modrons, anyhow?

In planescape, the planes represent philosophy and ethos in a very real fashion. That was one of the central draws or principles of the setting.

Modrons may seem goofy, but that plays into their image. The are wierd. They are alien. They are the sorts of creatures who dwell on a clockwork plane of unmitigated law.
 

Planar Handbook: Completely useFUL

>>I see that, on the whole, as a vast improvement and something that offers more choice. It isn't about "screwing the Planescape fanboys", its about giving the whole body of gamers a greater choice about how they run the Planes.

I agree with this. I also got home from work yesterday and opened up my 'Amazon,com' box. Spent the night reading while my wife and daughter painted miniatures. I was very pleased with the content.

The beginning of this thread was about how useless it was for DMs and I cannot possibly disagree more. I was finding stuff every 2 or 3 pages I could use, steal or adapt. I was pleased to see the nods to old Planescape because it brought back good memories, even Kylie the Tout was in there, that brought a grin! And the factions that were left out, it didn't bother me. There were way too many to keep track of for me from the begining.

Overall, my first quick-read was enjoyable and can see getting a lot of use out of this book as a DM. So I like it, and in my opinion it's a good book. Just posting my thoughts.

-DM Jeff
 

WizarDru said:
OK, I gotta ask....why are people so attached to the Modrons, anyhow?

In AD&D, they were (iirc) the goofy shape-people, right? The ones shaped like different polyhedrons? Did anyone actually like/use them?

In 2e, under Planescape, I guess, they became....what? Steampunk, Clockwork, Robotic versions of the same? Can someone explain to me what their appeal is? Is it just the law aspect? Some folks seem really attached to them, and I'm trying to understand the appeal.

The appeal is that they are an alien faceless horde that is difficult to deal with. They are a "race" with no individual iniative or desire and where members of a certain rank are functionally identical to each other (in fact they have no individuality at all). They move about the universe doing alien things for alien reasons and they make for fun roleplay because they force players to think outside of the box.

Even demons, as murderous, chaotic and evil as they are can be negotiated with and be understood within the context of what they are. They are chaos and evil to the extreme. As loathsome as they are, they embody qualities that mortal races understand (avarice, envy, rage etc.) because all mortals have ether experienced or encountered such qualities before.

Modrons embody only order on a cosmic timeless scale. This is something mortal races don't trully understand, at least not on the level modrons practice it. This leads to massive "misunderstandings", which is where the fun comes in. Sometimes a modron's task is funny to watch or brings great benefit to those around it, other times it brings great woe. Their activities appear random to non-modrons but to the modrons themselves, those seemingly random tasks are part of a cosmic plan set down by Primus, their leader. Small disruptions of the great pattern (like mortals being in their way) don't matter to them because those disruptions are only a blink in time.

The PCs can be travelling across the Outlands on a frantic mission of mercy to a plague stricken town and suddenly encounter a group of 1 decaton, 5 pentadrones and 20 quadrones who have built a 50' stone wall around the town to which they are travelling. (In fact orders have come down from Regulus that in 50,000 years the modrons will need this town as a fortification and Primus (the prime modron) has decided that it would be efficient to start fortifications early.)

Attempts to bypass the wall demonstrate that the modrons have blocked teleportation into the town and closed all the portals in and out and they relentlessly attack anyone who tries to break through or fly over their wall. For each modron destroyed, an identical one arrives within a round and they replenish their numbers to precisely 1:5:20. The issue now becomes how to convince the modrons to let you in on an urgent mission of mercy when they have no concept of urgency (being timeless beings that don't eat, sleep, get sick or age) and no concept of mercy and you can't fight your way past them.

As I said, I like modrons because they force PCs to think outside the box. You can't appeal to their emotions, you can't bribe them, charm them or otherwise force them to move from the task they are carrying out except by beating them at their own logic. All of the PCs power, magic, wealth and charm mean nothing to them. Dealing with them all boils down to figuring out WHAT they are doing and WHY, and then trying to convince them that YOU want them to do is a logical extension of their goal.

Tzarevitch
 

Shemeska said:
No, and some of the ones that did get PrC's are technically no longer an organized faction. The Bleak Cabal, Dustmen, Harmonium, Sodkillers, and Sons of Mercy didn't get a PrC. And of that group, only the Sons of Mercy got so much as mentioned in the book.

And yet they give us a Mind's Eye faction PrC :mad:
 

diaglo said:
i think one of the things that is bugging me more and more with the new releases... is size.

they are getting smaller and smaller and the price is staying high.

they should go to softcover if they are going to release things this size.

the Planar Handbook and Serpent Kingdoms are small.

Races of Stone isn't much bigger.

neither is Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, etc...


yes the core books were bigger with the revision but things since then have just shrunk.

Not only smaller, but they reprint a lot of information and make very poor use of space.

Tzarevitch
 

Psion said:
In planescape, the planes represent philosophy and ethos in a very real fashion. That was one of the central draws or principles of the setting.

Modrons may seem goofy, but that plays into their image. The are wierd. They are alien. They are the sorts of creatures who dwell on a clockwork plane of unmitigated law.
So the love is really for the Planescape version of modrons, then, and not the originals? As Tzeravitch describes them, I can see how they'd be interesting...but as I recall them from 1e, they just didn't evoke that feeling. I find more to interest me in Planescape all the time, but I'm still debating how much material to seek out, and which.
 

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