Planescape was Handholding. Forked from Plane Next Door/

[Leatherhead]

I think the thing that irks me the most about "needless symmetry," is that the 4e cosmology is symmetrical.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I bet all those who complain the old elemental planes were "boring" didn't bother to read the book Inner Planes which had at least 4 pages for each inner plane including Vacuum and each had a bunch of interesting hooks with each one.

And there's nothing new about the Elemental Chaos, it existed back in the Great Wheel, as the Inner Planes and Limbo and the Abyss.

About the only thing the World Axis does better is Shadowfell and Feywild since those planes were new or relatively minor back in the Great Wheel cosmology. Even though the 4e MotP actually bothers to includes those planes with the Great Wheel.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It was the metaphysical border between elemental air and the negative energy plane. It was the swirling current above a bottomless drain leading to physical oblivion. Individuals gathered there who were interested in solitude, utter seclusion, without the antithetical hostility of negative energy proper. The Doomguard had one of their four citadels located here, perched on the edge of oblivion, like monks in the wilderness contemplating the face of God.

It was also filled with mortal souls slowly being sucked towards negative energy, like stars caught in the pull of a black hole. Things abandoned and purposefully forgotten were simply dumped there, including an Abyssal fungus called Egarus that somehow, paradoxically managed to adapt to the plane, and literally subsisted through devouring the manifest concept of nothingness, and it reacted violently to anything that actually possessed physical form, clumping to it and dissolving it.

And then there was the undead... thing... known simply as Sun Sing. It might have been an incredibly powerful demilich, or an exiled archfiend, or a god of nothingness, or something worse. Nobody really knows. But it wasn't pleasant.

I've used the plane a few times, the one major time involving the Doomguard citadel there. I contemplated using Sun Sing in some capacity, but the plot never developed in that direction, so the idea was never fully developed.

I've used an inordinate number of crazy hostile planes in my campaigns (negative energy, positive energy, radiance, ash, dust, etc).

So they were still places the PCs interacted with in the end, or not? Elements like the Doomguard citadel or Sun Sing seem to be designed to make these places still something the PCs visit or otherwise interact with.

They don't just stand there because they are needed for the world to make sense. It appears you still care about this plane because it inspired you to build an adventure around it, not just because a plane of vacuum feels "right".

It just confirms the view that everything in a world can be used for adventuring, and no matter how hostile, dangerous and unlikely the place is, there will be plot hooks there, even if you have to shove in something unlikely into it to make it work.

It seems a far better critic might be saying that the "World Axis" system of 4E seems to remove the unlikely and hostile places to use for an adventure background. But then, I think they are still there, since many places in the Elemental Chaos, the Shaodwfell or the Feywild seem unpleasant and dangerous, and who knows what is going on in some of those Astral Dominions.

 

[resistor]

I don't think Shemeshka's experiences were so unique. I ran a Planescape campaign for eight years, and many of the things Shemeshka mentions remind me of things in my own games, or those of other Planescape DM's I've talked to online.

Some people just didn't "get" it......but there were a tonne of really interesting angles to the "old" multiverse. I'm not a big fan of the new one.....it's a lot more vanilla....but I do happen to like the inclusion of the Feywild, as a plane like that had never been incorporated into the Great Wheel previously.

This has been my experience too. I ran a loosely-adapted version of the Great Modron March mixed with adventures of my own design for a year or two, with great success.

In fact, our two most fun/successful adventures were an expedition to the elemental plane of fire at 3rd level, and defending a town in Mount Celestia from the (persistent, and not overly bright) modrons who wanted to march straight over it.

That's right, two of the locations commonly decried as examples of where the Great Wheel was bad ("It's not interesting because it's so lethal!", "How can adventuring in Mount Celestia be fun!?") gave us our most exhilarating adventures.

 

[Crothian]

Lastly, I rather see planes based on mythology and other works of fiction than being orginial and being based on one of the worst systems in D&D (alignment)

If they actually did a good job of this, it would be fine. But like your Fey examples, D&D does not do a good job depicting Fey as they are from mythology. D&D does about as good of a job as Disney.

 

[Zaister]

It was the metaphysical border between elemental air and the negative energy plane. It was the swirling current above a bottomless drain leading to physical oblivion. Individuals gathered there who were interested in solitude, utter seclusion, without the antithetical hostility of negative energy proper. The Doomguard had one of their four citadels located here, perched on the edge of oblivion, like monks in the wilderness contemplating the face of God.

It was also filled with mortal souls slowly being sucked towards negative energy, like stars caught in the pull of a black hole. Things abandoned and purposefully forgotten were simply dumped there, including an Abyssal fungus called Egarus that somehow, paradoxically managed to adapt to the plane, and literally subsisted through devouring the manifest concept of nothingness, and it reacted violently to anything that actually possessed physical form, clumping to it and dissolving it.

And then there was the undead... thing... known simply as Sun Sing. It might have been an incredibly powerful demilich, or an exiled archfiend, or a god of nothingness, or something worse. Nobody really knows. But it wasn't pleasant.

What sourcebook does this come from? Sounds interesting!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

One element I particularly like in the World Axis Cosmology are the "weak spots" in reality where you can switch to the Feywild or Shadowfell - or the Feywild or Shadowfell comes to the Material World. Worldfall is a great concept.

I was missing such things in the Great Wheel. Astral Plane, Ethreal Plane and Shadow Plane where "close" (coterminous or coexistent or what it was named), but not that close. And they seemed incredibly empty. Maybe that was just a 3.x artifact, and is depicted differently, but nowhere did I see something as lively as the Feywild, and even the bleak Shadowfell is more populated, more active, more rich than the Plane of Shadow seemed to be.

 

[avin]

Handholding? Dude, 4E cosmology forces you a lot. There's a "that's it" explanation for a lot of things that were more subtle on Planescape. Blood War explanation is something I would never use. What's next? Explaining what's inside Lady of Pain dress?

World Axis is a cosmology for DMs who like everything explained. Let's face it: 4E cosmology is "everywhere is a dungeon". Please don't get me that "oh but hestavar is bla bla bla", compared to Planescape fluff and tone it's just silly and, yes, I own the fourth edition Manual of the Planes.

TLDR: 4E "freedom" works only for planar structure, not fluff.

 

[Shemeska]

What sourcebook does this come from? Sounds interesting!

A combination of the 2e Inner Planes sourcebook, and the 2e Planescape Monstrous Compendium III.

 

[Zaister]

A combination of the 2e Inner Planes sourcebook, and the 2e Planescape Monstrous Compendium III.

Thanks! Guess I'll have to dig those up from my 2e storage.