Planescape was Handholding. Forked from Plane Next Door/

[LostSoul]

Individuals gathered there who were interested in solitude, utter seclusion, without the antithetical hostility of negative energy proper. The Doomguard had one of their four citadels located here, perched on the edge of oblivion, like monks in the wilderness contemplating the face of God.

"Hey man, you look like you want to live in utter solitude! Me too!"
"Cool. I know a bunch of other guys who want nothing to do with anyone. We should all get together sometime."
"I know this cool place in the plane of vaccuum..."
"Yeah, we'll build a citadel there where all of us can be absolutely alone together!"
"And we'll have wing night every thursday!"
"Awesome."


It's a cool idea, but one that sounds like it makes more sense for an adventuring locale than what would actually "be there".

 

[Imaro]

I used "players" in the first sentence. After a few years around, players will know a little about the setting, regardless of whether the character know.

But even with the smokes and mirrors, the PCs know that the Lady of Pain has enough power to keep the gods out.

So your problem is that as the players interact with the setting more they learn about things in the setting? Yeah, I think that's with any setting... again you're missing my point, The Lady of Pain wasn't statted out... there was no official stats a player could turn to in justification of anything as far as it concerned her... she was a construct whose true power, influence, weaknesses and limits were left up to the DM. Yes at the start of your run of the mill campaign she keeps Sigil safe, but there is no "official" listing of powers or reasons that explain why she can. Perhaps it's all a lie , kept up through the threat of what she might do (Think the wizard in Oz)... or maybe there's actually an artifact she uses to keep Sigil safe, and it may be stolen or destroyed, and so on. In other words The Lady of Pain isn't defined numerically, power-wise, etc. until the DM does so for his particular campaign.

I have read Exalted 2e, and the cosmology did not inspire me. In fact, it bothered me more and it would probably have been the first thing I would have thrown out. And the Great Wheel was very similar to me - I never reused the concepts in my homebrew.

Yeah we will definitely have to disagree here... I find Exalted's Wyld so much better than... It's your world but greener and with different monsters... or Exalted's underworld bettter then... It's your world but spookier, shadowier and with undead...

So it might just be a matter of taste. And I think there is nothing wrong in creating something new with a different taste. There are tons of D&D material for the Great Wheel. Now it's time for tons of D&D material on the Points of Light setting. Maybe 5E will be the time for tons of the Graylands setting. (Maybe 5E will focus on "morally ambiguities", a good opportunity after ditching the alignment system entirely.)

You're right it is a matter of taste, and I guess that's why I haven't purchased the MotP... this cosmology hasn't grabbed or interested me, and from what I hear, unlike the 3.5 version, there aren't rules or guidelines to help you build your own. But I am glad you enjoy it.

I don't know all those other games, so how should I compare? For me, the Feywild and Elemental Chaos are something new, and it seems to be something new to D&D in general, too. The Great Wheel is something old (and more, it is something old I didn't care for.)

I guess this kind of supports my assertion that many( though not all) who have played or read many of these games, may see nothing new or exciting in the 4e cosmology and instead view it as aq mish-mash of unoriginal ideas.

The important part is not necessary whether a single element is "innovative" in that there is stuff I have never seen before. The composition of rules framework and setting is something new. And I love it. It inspires me. I love the elements that tie back into real world mythology, fairy tales, and modern horror (almost an oxymoron, I guess). I am eager to explore the Feywild, sail the Astral Sea and fight off the Far Realms intrusions, survive the bleak Shadowfell and best demons from the Elemental Chaos. I want to do it with my characters, I want to send other players characters there. It's exciting.

See above as far as experiences with other games and how that may skew one's view. Not saying you're wrong but personally IMO 4e's cosmology is the... been there, seen that, but better done cosmology.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So your problem is that as the players interact with the setting more they learn about things in the setting? Yeah, I think that's with any setting... again you're missing my point, The Lady of Pain wasn't statted out... there was no official stats a player could turn to in justification of anything as far as it concerned her... she was a construct whose true power, influence, weaknesses and limits were left up to the DM.

Just like the gods are most of the time. So what?

Yes at the start of your run of the mill campaign she keeps Sigil safe, but there is no "official" listing of powers or reasons that explain why she can. Perhaps it's all a lie , kept up through the threat of what she might do (Think the wizard in Oz)... or maybe there's actually an artifact she uses to keep Sigil safe, and it may be stolen or destroyed, and so on. In other words The Lady of Pain isn't defined numerically, power-wise, etc. until the DM does so for his particular campaign.

But there is no reason one _has_ to try figure out the truth. Sigil is a safe haven and stable. Points of Light are not safe. They are safe temporarily, but if the PCs don't intervene, there will be no safe haven in the future.

Yeah we will definitely have to disagree here... I find Exalted's Wyld so much better than... It's your world but greener and with different monsters... or Exalted's underworld bettter then... It's your world but spookier, shadowier and with undead...

That seems a very superficial description of the Feywild or Shadowfell.
It totally misses what these different monsters - the Fey and their Courts actually mean, for example.

You're right it is a matter of taste, and I guess that's why I haven't purchased the MotP... this cosmology hasn't grabbed or interested me, and from what I hear, unlike the 3.5 version, there aren't rules or guidelines to help you build your own. But I am glad you enjoy it.

Well, the good part of the 3.5 MotP for me was rules to create a new cosmology. The good part of the 4E MotP is that I don't want to build a new cosmology!

I guess this kind of supports my assertion that many( though not all) who have played or read many of these games, may see nothing new or exciting in the 4e cosmology and instead view it as aq mish-mash of unoriginal ideas.

Maybe that is true, though I still find it more likely that it is a matter of taste and not merely experience. Of course D&D has one advantage - it's the entryway to gaming for most people, so for them the cosmology will be fresh.

Sometimes I also think originality is overrated - what matters if the object of discussion is well done. Lots of ideas are floating around, and lots of stuff is a rehash - but sometimes the "rehash" is actually more interesting then the original version of it. Sometimes, refinement is necessary.

See above as far as experiences with other games and how that may skew one's view. Not saying you're wrong but personally IMO 4e's cosmology is the... been there, seen that, but better done cosmology.

Well, I have been in the Great Wheel and seen it, so to speak. I haven't seen it done "better", but I haven't seen it done "good" (of course, subjectively) either. Maybe AD&D 2E would have changed that.

Maybe 4E would have been a good opportunity to "refined" rehash the supposed goodness of AD&D 2E. But I don't mind going in a different direction, either.

 

[Imaro]

Just like the gods are most of the time. So what?


But there is no reason one _has_ to try figure out the truth. Sigil is a safe haven and stable. Points of Light are not safe. They are safe temporarily, but if the PCs don't intervene, there will be no safe haven in the future

Are you being purposefully obtuse? Why must Sigil stay safe unto eternity... but PoL are only temporarily safe? If you want your Sigil to become a place threatened by outside forces what stops you as the DM from implementing this?... I mean The Lady of Pain is a construct you use to advance the setting and stories your group plays out... she doesn't exist outside of what you want her to do or what you want her powers to be... and the Sigil continuity police will not break your door down if you change something, I mean are your settings always stuck in a perpetual state of stasis or do they evolve, change and progress?

That seems a very superficial description of the Feywild or Shadowfell.
It totally misses what these different monsters - the Fey and their Courts actually mean, for example.

If you say so, but to me the planes in 4e, even though a book devoted to them has been released, have been only superficially detailed... and it's detail that IMO, feels like it's been rehashed from other sources... Thus I find it uninteresting because it is both vague and unoriginal.

Well, the good part of the 3.5 MotP for me was rules to create a new cosmology. The good part of the 4E MotP is that I don't want to build a new cosmology!

Cool, and if the designers of 4e had realized everyone might not like their cosmology and would want info on designing their own... they may have been able to make a few more sales, instead I'll stick with the 3.5 book.

Maybe that is true, though I still find it more likely that it is a matter of taste and not merely experience. Of course D&D has one advantage - it's the entryway to gaming for most people, so for them the cosmology will be fresh.

I find even this claim dubious as there are plenty of fantasy books where more original cosmologies than 4e's are established as well as those who draw on the same sources as D&D 4e, so I don't know if the cosmology will necessarily be "fresh" to many of the new gamers if they are wide read in the fantasy genre.

Sometimes I also think originality is overrated - what matters if the object of discussion is well done. Lots of ideas are floating around, and lots of stuff is a rehash - but sometimes the "rehash" is actually more interesting then the original version of it. Sometimes, refinement is necessary.

Eh, the problem is that a lack of originality often brings with it a comparison to others who have done similar work... again I feel Exalted blows the Shadowfell and Feywild out of the water when it comes to putting an interesting and original spin on common mythological cosmological elements (not to mention IMO it gets kudos for also reaching beyond the cultural boundaries of traditional western fantasy)... 4e, not so much.

Well, I have been in the Great Wheel and seen it, so to speak. I haven't seen it done "better", but I haven't seen it done "good" (of course, subjectively) either. Maybe AD&D 2E would have changed that.

Maybe 4E would have been a good opportunity to "refined" rehash the supposed goodness of AD&D 2E. But I don't mind going in a different direction, either.

Wait, so I'm confused... have you ever played in or read the actual Planescape products? Anyway it is subjective as again, I see nothing "good" in the way 4e has approached a multitude of rehashed ideas for it's cosmology.

 

[Belphanior]

So your problem is that as the players interact with the setting more they learn about things in the setting?

Dude, go a little easy on the throttle. Not every statement the guy makes is an attack on your position, nor is every statement he makes a position you need to attack in order to keep your cred up. You are very obviously missing the bat here.

again you're missing my point, The Lady of Pain wasn't statted out... there was no official stats a player could turn to in justification of anything as far as it concerned her... she was a construct whose true power, influence, weaknesses and limits were left up to the DM. Yes at the start of your run of the mill campaign she keeps Sigil safe, but there is no "official" listing of powers or reasons that explain why she can.

I see you are unfamiliar with the Oberoni Principle and the Rule 0 Fallacy.

The Lady of Pain might not have stats, but she does have quite a lot of very explicit statements about her behavior, doings and powers. And what she does is keep Sigil a safe haven. You argue that Planescape does not necessarily have a safe haven after all, because it's possible to ignore what's written in Planescape and substitute houserules instead.

By that logic we can also say that Planescape doesn't have the Great Wheel cosmology and actually used the 4e Axis cosmology all along. And Sigil is the shape of a Klein Bottle and lies on the suburbs of the Shadowfell. Does it say otherwise in the book? Tough, I'm houseruling it.

See how disingenuous this kind of argument is?

 

[Imaro]

Dude, go a little easy on the throttle. Not every statement the guy makes is an attack on your position, nor is every statement he makes a position you need to attack in order to keep your cred up. You are very obviously missing the bat here.

Dude, it's a discussion and I think if Mustrum felt "attacked" he would say so. We've had plenty of discussions on this board and I've never offended or disrespected him so back off. It's not about "cred" it's about two people going back and forth with ideas and opinions... so please stop projecting whatevere issues you have onto our discussion... thanks.

I see you are unfamiliar with the Oberoni Principle and the Rule 0 Fallacy.

The Lady of Pain might not have stats, but she does have quite a lot of very explicit statements about her behavior, doings and powers. And what she does is keep Sigil a safe haven. You argue that Planescape does not necessarily have a safe haven after all, because it's possible to ignore what's written in Planescape and substitute houserules instead.

No what I said was her methods are never disclosed and thus depending on her methods Sigil may be safe now but there is no guarantee it will always be. Please show me where it is explained how The Lady of Pain does what she does, or what she is... or even if she has to stay within Sigil and protect it forever...

By that logic we can also say that Planescape doesn't have the Great Wheel cosmology and actually used the 4e Axis cosmology all along. And Sigil is the shape of a Klein Bottle and lies on the suburbs of the Shadowfell. Does it say otherwise in the book? Tough, I'm houseruling it.

See how disingenuous this kind of argument is?

What? Uhm, no you're contradicting things that are specifically stated, described and explained (please show me where my determining how The Lady of Pain's powers work or what her weaknesses are contradicts any concrete information on her in the setting).. and the only disingenuous thing was trying to say what you posted above was the same as determining or fleshing things out that are not explicitly stated in the Planescape setting.

 

[Hussar]

Are you being purposefully obtuse? Why must Sigil stay safe unto eternity... but PoL are only temporarily safe? If you want your Sigil to become a place threatened by outside forces what stops you as the DM from implementing this?... I mean The Lady of Pain is a construct you use to advance the setting and stories your group plays out... she doesn't exist outside of what you want her to do or what you want her powers to be... and the Sigil continuity police will not break your door down if you change something, I mean are your settings always stuck in a perpetual state of stasis or do they evolve, change and progress?

Ummm, Sigil stays safe for eternity because the setting canon pretty much says so. No god can enter Sigil because of the Lady of Pain. Within Sigil, the Lady is the ULTIMATE power. These two facts, pretty much, tell anyone with even a slight knowledge of the setting that Sigil is pretty much eternal if you are following canon.

Now, if you want to discuss an alternate Sigil where the above two facts are not true, that would be an interesting setting as well. But, that is certainly NOT how Sigil is presented.

The Lady is not statted out, not because she's mysterious or whatever, but because she's the ultimate Deus ex machina of the setting. Anything that threatens Sigil is immediately dealt with by the Lady.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Wait, so I'm confused... have you ever played in or read the actual Planescape products?

No. I don't need to for the Great Wheel, do I? That's in every planar material regarding D&D 3. As I said, maybe the AD&D Planescape material would change my opinion on the quality of the Great Wheel. But this is just "potential quality" to me, unlike the 4E cosmology, which I read in played in and definitely like.

 

[Belphanior]

Dude, it's a discussion and I think if Mustrum felt "attacked" he would say so. We've had plenty of discussions on this board and I've never offended or disrespected him so back off. It's not about "cred" it's about two people going back and forth with ideas and opinions... so please stop projecting whatevere issues you have onto our discussion... thanks.

Oh dear, you misunderstood me.

I wasn't saying it for the sake of Mustrum or my "projected issues", but for your own sake. You were making yourself look ridiculous with that post, and now again by so totally overreacting. Projected issues? Really? Do you really think you're such a great psychoanalyst that you can tell such things by a single internet post?

But I get the feeling you don't have the same view on this as I do, so keep doing however you like to do things.

No what I said was her methods are never disclosed and thus depending on her methods Sigil may be safe now but there is no guarantee it will always be. Please show me where it is explained how The Lady of Pain does what she does, or what she is... or even if she has to stay within Sigil and protect it forever...

The first part of the first sentence is true, but it all goes off the rails from there. You are correct when you say the Lady has no stats or explicitly stated methods or weaknesses. But this is because she is a deus ex machina. She is a plot device. She is a "because I said so" tool. A flavorful one that gives Sigil more character, sure, but a plot device just the same.

However, he lack of stats doesn't equal a lack of intent. The Planescape setting makes it very obvious that the Lady is top dog in Sigil, has been so since forever, and will keep being so forever. Ergo, your statement that there's no guarantee that the Lady will keep being omnipotent is against the spirit of Planescape. Ergo, it is a houserule that has no business being discussed here.

What? Uhm, no you're contradicting things that are specifically stated, described and explained (please show me where my determining how The Lady of Pain's powers work or what her weaknesses are contradicts any concrete information on her in the setting).. and the only disingenuous thing was trying to say what you posted above was the same as determining or fleshing things out that are not explicitly stated in the Planescape setting.

My hyperbole example was against explicit Planescape elements.
Your argument goes against all-but-explicit Planescape elements.

They were both disingenuous.

 

[Imaro]

Ummm, Sigil stays safe for eternity because the setting canon pretty much says so. No god can enter Sigil because of the Lady of Pain. Within Sigil, the Lady is the ULTIMATE power. These two facts, pretty much, tell anyone with even a slight knowledge of the setting that Sigil is pretty much eternal if you are following canon.

Now, if you want to discuss an alternate Sigil where the above two facts are not true, that would be an interesting setting as well. But, that is certainly NOT how Sigil is presented.

The Lady is not statted out, not because she's mysterious or whatever, but because she's the ultimate Deus ex machina of the setting. Anything that threatens Sigil is immediately dealt with by the Lady.

Now I could be wrong since I haven't read my Planescape stuff in awhile... but was it an "alternate" Sigil in which Faction War occured? Where a method of destroying The Lady of Pain is discovered and the city is sent spiraling into chaos and destruction? What I'm saying is that The Lady of Pain and Sigil have weaknessess and are not invincible even if going by canon.

Note: Like I said I haven't read this stuff in years so I could be remembering wrong...