Planet of the Priests

[Pielorinho]

Moderator's Notes

Just a quick reminder that we need to discuss this without reference to real-world religion and politics. While it'd definitely be a fascinating discussion to bring in real-world references (and one that I'd personally love to have), those aren't allowed on the boards, because such a discussion would be more heated than we can have here.

Daniel

 

[jdrakeh]

Moderator's Notes

Just a quick reminder that we need to discuss this without reference to real-world religion and politics. While it'd definitely be a fascinating discussion to bring in real-world references (and one that I'd personally love to have), those aren't allowed on the boards, because such a discussion would be more heated than we can have here.

Daniel

That's why I didn't specifically cite any examples of real world religions or politics. I didn't realize that non-specific real world analogies were disallowed.

 

[Pielorinho]

That was more of a preemptive note on my part. Nonspecific real-world references are kind of borderline; it really depends on the content of the reference (e.g., "There have been a variety of real-world organizations of religion"=okay; "Real-world religion inevitably leads to genocide"=not okay). As long as folks stay polite and don't make sweeping value judgments about real-world religions, I'm inclined to let nonspecific references go through.

Mostly the note is to avoid someone's talking about specific instances, though. I wasn't calling anyone out with it.

Daniel

 

[jdrakeh]

Mostly the note is to avoid someone's talking about specific instances, though. I wasn't calling anyone out with it.

Daniel

Well, I edited accordingly, just to avoid an issue.

 

[Ghoti]

I don't really believe that the negatives being discussed here would have to be so unless the DM wanted it to be so and then he/she could do so even with out everyone being at least a first level cleric if they have a 10+ Wisdom.

Just look at the Forgotten Realms setting. I view this idea, at least first level cleric if Wisdom 10+, as an extention of the Forgotten Realms as everyone in that setting has to have a patron deity.

 

[LostSoul]

The only problem with that line of reasoning is that 'good' gods almost always condone the wholesale slaughter of 'evil' beings (i.e., those individuals who worship an opposing deity).

Good point. Since some creatures are wholly evil I could see a Good god going for it. Like Pelor off to kill all the ghouls in Ghoultown. That's kind of an interesting setting. One where the "Armies of the Gods" have been at war with each other since the beginning of time. Where do the PCs come down on the issue? With Pelor? Vecna? Or do they say, "All you guys suck" and make up their own system?

I think that a world where everybody llives in perfect harmony, despite worshipping vastly different entities and having vastly different beliefs, is a far stretch - even for a fantasy setting. Plus, a fantasy setting without conflict would be really boring.

That's not what I was trying to say; just that things would be black-and-white for people in society. Things would either be right or wrong based on the teachings (even Chaotic teachings, if that makes any sense) handed down from the Gods. Everyone knows them and experiences the "Truth" of those teachings every day.

And since you know what is "Right" and what is "Wrong", to be Right you may have to smash the Wrong people.

I personally think that a world ruled by an Evil god would be a lot more fun to play in.

 

[jdrakeh]

I don't really believe that the negatives being discussed here would have to be so unless the DM wanted it to be so

Well, that's true - but that can be said of any given aspect (postitive or negative) in any setting - nothing has to be so in a setting, unless the GM wants it to be. That said, I'm a sim-head - in my games, I tend to incorporate logical (not necessarily realistic, mind you) social models, as opposed to idealistic social models (while the latter can be quite fun, they really shatter suspension of disbelief for me). If I ran a game of in a world populat entirely by clerics, it would inevitably be full of wars, genocide, and very scary theocratic police states all bent on undermining and/or destroying one another.

 

[jdrakeh]

Good point. Since some creatures are wholly evil I could see a Good god going for it. Like Pelor off to kill all the ghouls in Ghoultown. That's kind of an interesting setting. One where the "Armies of the Gods" have been at war with each other since the beginning of time. Where do the PCs come down on the issue? With Pelor? Vecna? Or do they say, "All you guys suck" and make up their own system?

As I said in my post directly above, I'd run this as a very dark setting with wars, genocide, and scary theocratic police states. In point of fact, it would be a kind of Neil Gaiman / Tom Clancy blender with a bit of Blade Runner thrown in for tone. Lots of politcal and religious espionage, as well as holy wars, etc.

That's not what I was trying to say; just that things would be black-and-white for people in society. Things would either be right or wrong based on the teachings (even Chaotic teachings, if that makes any sense) handed down from the Gods. Everyone knows them and experiences the "Truth" of those teachings every day.

Oh, I get you - and yeah, I agree. The world would be very black and white, as questioning the 'holy teachings' of whatever deist society you happeneed to live in would likely be considered heresy (much like those that questioned the Church during the Middle Ages were branded heretics), so most people would simply take to following them blindly for fear of retribution.

 

[Ghoti]

Well, that's true - but that can be said of any given aspect (postitive or negative) in any setting - nothing has to be so in a setting, unless the GM wants it to be. That said, I'm a sim-head - in my games, I tend to incorporate logical (not necessarily realistic, mind you) social models, as opposed to idealistic social models (while the latter can be quite fun, they really shatter suspension of disbelief for me). If I ran a game of in a world populat entirely by clerics, it would inevitably be full of wars, genocide, and very scary theocratic police states all bent on undermining and/or destroying one another.

I don't see any logic in this line of reasoning. Just becuase these people are first level clerics does not mean that they are part of the institutional churches. This could be the result of basic education.

If you feel this way then the Forgotten Realms for you must be a burning cinder by now as every single person in it belongs to a specific deity so they must also be fighting.

Being a cleric does not mean that you can not acknowledge that there are other Gods out there, especially given the fact that D&D is based on pantheism.

 

[Kelleris]

I have to agree with Ghoti here, I just don't see genocide as an inevitable result of widespread faith, especially since pretty much every published setting already assumes widespread faith in the deities. Giving everyone a little divine spellcasting wouldn't really exacerbate that, to my mind, and it might even weaken the churches. ("You can heal? So what, everyone can do that! Why should we tithe to your church for powers the Great One gives us already. Now the city council and the mage's guild, they actually have something to show us for our money...")

I like Dirigible's suggestion of animism, especially since I think it would be virtually impossible to maintain a monolithic church when everyone has some speck of divine power to show for themselves. It would make sense for a sense of radical tolerance to spring up based on the idea that everyone worships their own idiosyncratic set of spirits that are important to their daily lives. The everyday tools of your trade and spaces of your home would acquire a certain sacred tincture if everyone has clerical spellcasting.

And I doubt strongly there would be many people around without a double-digit wisdom. That would be like being born blind or deaf (more like blind and deaf) in such a world - the person's life is pretty much a non-starter except in very unusual circumstances, especially since I would enforce the required 1 level of cleric. Even if you get no spells for that level, you were trained according to the way the world works it.