Playing Monks

[Don21584]

I'd rather have a higher DC for Stunning fist (and eventually Quivering Palm) than the higher AC with Dex. And the Wis and Dex bonuses for AC stack anyway, so it would be better to have the higher Wis if you're just doing it for AC purposes...

 

[Olive]

it's interesting that no one has mentioned the character concept, but there you go (as mo's DM, its somethigni'm a bit proud of...)

but i was glad to see that someone at least views this as a playable character... it certainly thought it was (better at least than the first rolls that would have given him a cha of 4...)

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

I'm gonna go against the grain here and suggest this: Strength and Constitution should be your first priority. Why? You are the only tank in your party. You have a role to fill that is neither scout nor skirmisher.

Just as most fighters will tell you, Dexterity and Wisdom don't mean anything when you can kill the enemy before they have a chance to retaliate. Jumping around the foe and Spring Attacking the enemy while doing piddly damage is going to leave your casters vulnerable. And since somebody has to take the damage, it had better be you instead of the casters.

With those stats, 18, 16, 14, 12, 11, 8, I'd go:

Str 20
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 6
Wis 14
Chr 9

Skills: Listen and Tumble (That's it. Neither one needs to be maxed. Put a few into Jump for feat requirements, if necessary.)

1st level feat: Improved Initiative (or Improved Grapple if you have OA)
For later: Earth's Embrace, Mantis Leap and Flying Kick (for double-Strength modifier, double-damage charges), Roundabout Kick.

Your tactics are simple. Protect the casters, defend the party and do not leave the party as a scout. Stay next to the cleric and wizard, so they can heal and buff you while you protect them.

Items to look for: Potions of buffs, Ring of Mage Armor (If your caster doesn't have this one), Amulet of Mighty Fists, etc...

 

[Christian]

I'd rather have a higher DC for Stunning fist (and eventually Quivering Palm) than the higher AC with Dex. And the Wis and Dex bonuses for AC stack anyway, so it would be better to have the higher Wis if you're just doing it for AC purposes...

Taking your points in reverse order: advantages Dex has over Wisdom are the initiative bonus (if you're flat-footed, you'll only get the Wisdom bonus to AC, and you really need both to stay alive) and missile combat (in general, it's wise to have good missile capability and get into melee only when truly necessary, a lesson I have learned the hard way). And a point or two of save DC isn't really going to make much difference, as the Stunning Fist isn't that great an ability. (I haven't seen the 3rd Ed QP in action yet ...) At low levels, you don't get enough uses per day and don't hit often enough; and by the time you get high enough level to rain some SF attacks down with impunity, the Fort saves of your typical opponents have outstripped your DC increase from your level. I've played a monk from 1st to 5th level, in a party for which he's forced to often take a front-line melee role, and I have successfully stunned an opponent exactly once. He has a 16 Wisdom, too-it's not due to a too-low DC bonus on that ability ...

Strength is more useful than you might think at first glance. It's actually where I've decided to put my bonus attribute points. With the flurry of blows ability and the improved secondary attack progression, you get to launch a lot more melee attacks than most other characters, and the Strength bonus applies its full value to every one of those attack and damage rolls. Sure, you can spend a feat on Weapon Finesse-but there are so many other useful feats for a monk to pick up, it's very efficient to have a high Strength instead. (One more level to Spring Attack ... just one more level ... ) At 10th level, with the 4th and 8th level attribute bonuses applied to Strength, that half-orc can flurry for 4 attacks per round @ 1d10+5 points of damage per attack. Sometimes, it's nice to stun an opponent. But I've found that pounding them into a quivering mass of jelly works pretty well too.

 

[ThomasBJJ]

Here's a neat little house rule for monks:

Allow them to use Stunning Attacks multiple times per round (in a Flurry of Blows, or if they get mulitple attacks do you high enough UABAB). Then allow multiple stuns to carry over consecutively.

Example: Monk attacks with a flurry of blows, both are stunning attempts. Both hit, both stun. The opponent is now stunned for 2 rounds.
Second round, monk attacks with another flurry of 2 stunning attacks. Both hit again and both stun. The victim had one more round of stun left, but now has two more, for a total of 3 rounds of being stunned.

Much more useful IMO, and not too powerful considering the limitation on what can be stunned and the saving throws, and the limits on number of times per day a monk can use it, even with S&F's Extra Stunning feat.

 

[Olive]

just so people know, the stats presented are the characters stats AFTER half-orc mods are taken into account.

so there's no way that he could have had a 20 str (concrete buddha) or a 18 wis (don21584)

but thanks to the people keepin' it sane and noticing that these are totally playable stats!

also i'd like to note that i agree with Gizzard: monk's need lots of good stats. i think this is the fact with every class except the big 4, to a greater or lesser degree. Paladin's need high wis, str and cha. Sorcerors need good Cha and Int. and so on...

 

[mo]

Strength is more useful than you might think at first glance. It's actually where I've decided to put my bonus attribute points. With the flurry of blows ability and the improved secondary attack progression, you get to launch a lot more melee attacks than most other characters, and the Strength bonus applies its full value to every one of those attack and damage rolls. Sure, you can spend a feat on Weapon Finesse-but there are so many other useful feats for a monk to pick up, it's very efficient to have a high Strength instead.

That was my feeling too - high str with all those attacks is pretty fearsome. And it seemed to fit the half-orcishness well.

Also, before reading OA, the Wis bonuses for the monk seemed quite underwhelming. Especially when taking a higher Dex than Wis gives you better ranged attacks, better initiative, better tumbling, and armour class is Wis + Dex anyway (even if the dex bonus is more problematic).

Having now reviewed OA I can see more advantages (those extra feats) but I think Christain's points are well made.

I think the big problem with my monk is his constitution - he may have a good strength, combined with flurry of blows and over time improved secondary attack progression but if he gets near any one be is likely to be in trouble - which I suppose makes ranged attack bonuses even more useful.

 

[Volefisk]

I think the big problem with my monk is his constitution - he may have a good strength, combined with flurry of blows and over time improved secondary attack progression but if he gets near any one be is likely to be in trouble - which I suppose makes ranged attack bonuses even more useful.

We have two monks in our group that seem to contrast the two general types of monks that have been described thus far on this thread. The human monk placed WIS before DEX (16 and 18), and CON before STR (14 and 12). She tries to be a tank, but can't quite pull it off. I play an elven monk, and put DEX before WIS (18 and 16), and STR before CON (16 and 11). Rather than putting myself in harms way, I tend to use my superior movement (running, climbing, tumbling, and jump) to put myself in advantageous positions from which I can use my sling. I let the baddies come to me, and my high initiative usually gives me enough time to seriously put the hurt on my foes before they reach me. When they get to me, they're usually wounded enough that I can take them down fast (with flurry of blows) without getting hurt.

My monk is a lot more effective than my friend's, which I always feel bad about. But to be honest, he wouldn't be anywhere near as effective without the tank-wannabe in the frontlines.

For hand-to-hand goodness, I like using this feat combo: Unbalancing Strike (OA), Expert Tactician (S&F), and Improved Trip. I unleash a flurry of unbalancing blows against my foe, maybe making one of them a Stunning Attack. Since they're bound to fail at least one of their saves and lose their DEX bonus, I use the extra partial action to Trip them (with bonuses from the Stunning/Unbalancing Attack) and deal extra damage when they fall. When it all comes together, it is a sight to behold... and a crowd pleaser, because I tend to act first and by my actions give all the other PCs bonuses to hit our common foe.

<Volefisk>

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

just so people know, the stats presented are the characters stats AFTER half-orc mods are taken into account.

so there's no way that he could have had a 20 str (concrete buddha)

I also took this into account.

mo---

Str 18
Dex 18
Con 8
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 9

I which converts back to an unmodifed 18, 16, 14, 12, 11, and 8.

Unless Half-Orcs get a Dexterity bonus in your world, I took the 18 from Dex and stuck it into Str instead.
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Christian---

With the flurry of blows ability and the improved secondary attack progression, you get to launch a lot more melee attacks than most other characters, and the Strength bonus applies its full value to every one of those attack and damage rolls.

Bingo! Monks effectively have a superior version of ambidexterity/TWF, which high Dex/Wis monks seldom use to full effectiveness.

Spring Attack is the exact wrong feat for a high strength monk, as your power lies within the full attack action.

And if you really need to do damage from far away: 1) your casters aren't doing their job, and 2) use the most underrated weapon, the javelin. Just carry them and huck them in the first round of combat.
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Don21584---
It's irrelevant to utilize a class's most useful ability score? Then why are there so many Rogue's with high Dex, and Barbarians with high Str?

This bothers me. For two reasons:

1) A Monk is not a single-role class like a Barbarian.

A Barb is a tank. That's about it. A Monk can be a scout, skirmisher or tank.

2) A Rogue's most useful stat is not necessarily Dex, as a Rogue is a multi-role class.

A Rogue can be an effective human relations expert (Cha), tank (Str/Con), or skills fiend (Int). All of these are effective alternatives to the high Dex rogue. To say otherwise is to make a generalization that all Rogues must be high-dexterity-weapon-finesse-archer-scouts or else they are not effective characters, an idea I will happily disagree with.

 

[Tonguez]

I gave my monk Dex 18 Wis 18 Str 10 and Con 12 Int 14 Cha 10 and at early levels trying to hit anything in melee was a bummer (Flurry of blows don't mean much when you keep missing).

ie Str is important for its BAb bonus (so nect time Str 12)

However I was also pretty much untouchable with all that tumbling, AC bonuses. And as soon as I got myself a crossbow life was fun.