Please rate Incantatrix
- Thread starter LordAO
- Start date
ForceUser
Explorer
It's tough to ignore a character's potential when it's staring you in the face.LordAO said:
As for sorcerers: like druids, there are few prestige classes that make sense for them, but also like druids, they don't need 'em. Straight sorcerers are sooo bloody powerful in terms of sheer damage output. Among my game group, though, the Mindbender from Tome & Blood is considered a good choice for sorcerers.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Why do you even need a prestige class?
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
ForceUser said:
I think I disagree with you.
Druids who join a PrC lose all benefits from advancing as a druid except for spellcasting abilities. These are significant benefits: advances in wildshaping, immunity to poison, alter self at will, and so forth. Of the four primary spellcasting classes (cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard), druids stand to lose the most by joining a PrC, even one that is +1 spellcasting/level.
Sorcerers who join a PrC also lose all benefits from advancing as a sorcerer except for spellcasting abilities. These are, however, almost nonexistent: the only lost benefit is the advancement of one's familiar. Of the four primary spellcasting clases, sorcerers stand to lose the least from joining a PrC that offers +1 spellcasting/level.
In terms of sheer damage output, a straight sorcerer is no more powerful than a sorcerer/incantatrix.
Daniel
Shard O'Glase
First Post
problem is most prestige classes for spellcasters require a skill sorcerers don't normally have access to. So while the class might be balanced for the wizards many times its not for the sorcerer and the increased costs of a feat, and proportionally more expensive skill points they have since int isn't a prime req.
I still say incantrix is overpowered for its costs, but the basic complaint I agree with. There aren't very many prestige classes built for a sorcerer to take.
I still say incantrix is overpowered for its costs, but the basic complaint I agree with. There aren't very many prestige classes built for a sorcerer to take.
Tzarevitch
First Post
LordAO said:
The class is quite good. It is one of the better classes for an arcane caster and it is VERY GOOD for sorcerers. The requirement for abjuration specialist is painful for Wizards but much less so for sorcerers b/c you have a limited spell selection anyway. Most sorcerers tend to "specialize" anyway. They have a limited spell selection so they tend to choose spells for a particular thematic effect and be VERY good with them rather than have an ecclectic mix of spells to cover all areas like wizards do.
As for the complaints that it is broken; it isn't. What was broken was the lack of clarity regarding metamagic feats that were reduced cost or free and stacking rules for metamagic. If you use the 3.5 rule that you can't metamagic for free or reduced cost, any spell that you couldn't have metamagicked without the reduction, the problem is solved. If indeed 3.5 prevents stacking the same metamagic feat then also; problem solved.
Also as has been pointed out, you can't empower any of the animal aspect spells in 3.5 so that abuse goes away as well.
Improved Metamagic is not game breaking by any means. If people are regarding reduced-cost metamagic as "broken" how are they handling the Instant Metamagic ability that the Incantatrix has or the free metamagics that come from a metamagic rod?
Someone brought up the Archmage class. Archmage is fantastic for sorcerers. The entry requirements are PAINFUL but it is much better for sorcerers than for wizards because sorcerers are not coughing up spells-known, they are coughing up slots of which they usually have more than they will use in a day. Even one level is great for sorcerers b/c you can take that ability that allows you to freely substitute energy-types. It gives sorcerers tremendous flexibility in dealing damage.
Tzarevitch
ruleslawyer said:
Hey, I'm the last person to nerf something on a knee-jerk reaction. But the Improved Metamagic is excessively powerful. And yes, I know that a lot of class abilities are better than most of the crappy epic-level feats. My point was that the Incantatrix gets one of the best epic-level feats as a class ability. Epic-level feats vary so widely in power that you can make almost anything look good by comparing it to one of the bottom-tier feats.
Yes, it is a bit closer. But instead of doing a 4x Empower, let's say the Incantatrix does a 2x Empower + Maximize. Now the fireball is doing 120 damage instead of 105. And at 15th level, the Incantatrix has 8th level slots, so he could do a 3x Empower + Maximize for 150 damage. And just because some creatures are fire subtype and some characters have evasion doesn't make it balanced - he simply won't use the spell on them.
Now, I have a lot of problems with the supposed game balance that exists in 3E, but I'm reasonably sure that the game is not balanced with the idea of wizards being able to throw out spells that do 150 damage to multiple targets at 15th level in mind. Sure, you could raise the requirements to try to compensate, but I'm not sure you could bring an ability like that into balance.
Grog said:
No offfense, but your math seems a bit off. Maximize Spell only maxes the base spell damage. Damage from Empower Spell and other metamagics is NOT maximized.
Fireball is base 10 d6. each empower adds 5 d6. as an 8th level spell (3rd level spell +2 maximize, +3 empower), that is 60 + 15d6 damage. That's 75 - 150 damage, which is an average of around 113 or so.
That doesn't seem unbalanced for an 8th level spell (just look at Horrid Wilting). And this is with Improved Metamagic.
And as far as why I want a prestige class, well it seems simple. Not only do I like more specific character concepts to play with, I am also loosing absolutely nothing from those Sorc levels since I have no familiar. And since the Sorcerer gets kind of jacked when it comes to class abilities, so I don't feel bad about that at all.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
I'd go with incantatrix, then. (For the record, I think MotAO is substantially more powerful for a sorcerer than incantatrix; two burn feats for a vastly improved spell selection?) Keep in mind that the abjuration specialist thing isn't really a hit for a sorcerer; in effect, it gives the sorc an extra Abjuration spell per day, and the restricted school really isn't a big deal given the sorc's pre-existing limitation on spells known.
Grog: Note that as LordAO points out, it's 113 average damage for an 8th-level metamagicked fireball, not 150. Moreover, a horrid wilting does an average 67.5 hp damage that's targetable against individual creatures rather than an area (thereby avoiding friendly fire), has a save DC 5 higher, and is subject neither to evasion nor to elemental immunities. Again, you're talking two feats plus a class ability to boost the metamagicked fireball over the HW; I'd say that's a fair cost.
IMHO, the basic fact is that metamagic is a suboptimal choice for practically any class other than the incantatrix. (Another problem is that high-level direct damage spells, with the exception of HW, suck, but that's a separate issue.) 3.5 is removing both empowerable ability buffs and stackable Empower, which is the one place in which the Imp Metamagic ability looks anything close to overpowered. A twinned, maximized fireball is an 8th-level slot using Imp Metamagic, and inflicts 120 hp damage, with a low save DC, fire resistance/immunity, and evasion all subtracting further from its power.
Grog: Note that as LordAO points out, it's 113 average damage for an 8th-level metamagicked fireball, not 150. Moreover, a horrid wilting does an average 67.5 hp damage that's targetable against individual creatures rather than an area (thereby avoiding friendly fire), has a save DC 5 higher, and is subject neither to evasion nor to elemental immunities. Again, you're talking two feats plus a class ability to boost the metamagicked fireball over the HW; I'd say that's a fair cost.
IMHO, the basic fact is that metamagic is a suboptimal choice for practically any class other than the incantatrix. (Another problem is that high-level direct damage spells, with the exception of HW, suck, but that's a separate issue.) 3.5 is removing both empowerable ability buffs and stackable Empower, which is the one place in which the Imp Metamagic ability looks anything close to overpowered. A twinned, maximized fireball is an 8th-level slot using Imp Metamagic, and inflicts 120 hp damage, with a low save DC, fire resistance/immunity, and evasion all subtracting further from its power.
I have played an incantantrix a couple times, so what I say doesn't come from simple overview of the class but real experience.
The class is too powerful. Immunity to death and energy drain in 1 ability is worth it alone. Multiple bonus feats, free metamagic, and the biggie of improved metamagic is over the top.
You aren't going to use the power? That has no bearing on the class. It is possible for a person to play a hero-god in a game an not be broken, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed. I look only at the abilities and what they can do. Unless you are willing to take restrictions such as "no empower feat" any protests of "but I wouldn't do that" don't balance a class.
Epic is like a different game entirely. I don't even think they are comparable. It ranges so widely that we might as well look at Deities and Demigods. I am sure there are some class features than some salient divine abilities.
The class is too powerful. Immunity to death and energy drain in 1 ability is worth it alone. Multiple bonus feats, free metamagic, and the biggie of improved metamagic is over the top.
You aren't going to use the power? That has no bearing on the class. It is possible for a person to play a hero-god in a game an not be broken, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed. I look only at the abilities and what they can do. Unless you are willing to take restrictions such as "no empower feat" any protests of "but I wouldn't do that" don't balance a class.
Epic is like a different game entirely. I don't even think they are comparable. It ranges so widely that we might as well look at Deities and Demigods. I am sure there are some class features than some salient divine abilities.
