Plot immunity for PCs
- Thread starter Kahuna Burger
- Start date
Numion
First Post
No plot immunity!
Yesterdays game was a perfect example. Our groups life was hanging by a thread and it just felt incredible to roll that sequence of hit-hit-CRIT!-hit with my arrows. Dragon died just before it would've shredded through another of our tanks and finally got to me, when I would've been dead because as an archer I can't go to melee with a dragon 4 CRs above our head.
Our planning (immunities to right spells, elemental protections and smart dispelling) allowed us to reign against a superior opponent. Only one character went to negatives and another to low HPs. We knew the DM didn't pull punches, and even used quite devastatingly power attack when if the dragon thought we had low enough ACs.
What made the combat memorable was the threat of death, which wouldn't have been there if we had plot immunity. That was a great victory.
Yesterdays game was a perfect example. Our groups life was hanging by a thread and it just felt incredible to roll that sequence of hit-hit-CRIT!-hit with my arrows. Dragon died just before it would've shredded through another of our tanks and finally got to me, when I would've been dead because as an archer I can't go to melee with a dragon 4 CRs above our head.
Our planning (immunities to right spells, elemental protections and smart dispelling) allowed us to reign against a superior opponent. Only one character went to negatives and another to low HPs. We knew the DM didn't pull punches, and even used quite devastatingly power attack when if the dragon thought we had low enough ACs.
What made the combat memorable was the threat of death, which wouldn't have been there if we had plot immunity. That was a great victory.
arcady said:
Good advice Arcady - also I agree with your genre distinction. I run D&D as sword & sorcery were no one's sure who (if anyone) is the lead character. Good heroic fantasy & s&s frequently features the deaths of main characters - Boromir in LoTR (to a random encounter!) or Valeria in the 1st Conan movie are good examples.
Generally I do prefer it that characters not die too often from 'minor' encounters like the Death Star stormtroopers, unless they've been foolish (picked a fight with the frost giants who just want money to let them pass) or the occasional unlucky cohort. The CR system is good for this - an encounter of EL equal party level should give a good fight without much risk of PC death, although there are flaws - some low CR beasts can easily kill a PC of equal level in 1 round of melee. For the climactic battle with the BBEG though, I'd expect EL to be at least +4 over party level - ie 50% chance to win, all else being equal. In Conan TB the climactic Battle of the Mounds battle looked to be at least +4 over the heroes' level, they won through clever tactics, luck, and a little divine intervention from Valeria. Likewise the X-wing attack on the Death Star at the end of SWIV. If it was easy, someone else would've done it already!
Kichwas
Half-breed
One could also argue that those stormtrooper fights were anti-dramatic and should have been evaded somehow.
Everyone knew while watching that that none of the good guys would get so much as a scratch. It was merely a time filler, a transition scene. No tension. There's more excitement to be had from watching the pseudo-romance moments with Luke and Leia. Even as a 6 year old talking about the movie in the schoolyard the next day we were all over that and the death star moments with Vader -the scenes where you weren't sure how it would play out.
Too much plot immunity can mess it up for a film as well. As an adult when I watch action movies the scenes with mooks don't catch me - I just see them as setting up for the real scene, you could drop them or change them to non fight scenes without much change in the story.
Compare it to a film like Full Metal Jacket - there's not a fight scene in that entire flick were you don't wonder if we're headed for a TPK. As such, the conflicts in it grab you a lot stronger, make you feel them much more, and leace you savoring the drama in between with that much more interest. It matters more. Even if the movie's genre as a whole is not my style.
Everyone knew while watching that that none of the good guys would get so much as a scratch. It was merely a time filler, a transition scene. No tension. There's more excitement to be had from watching the pseudo-romance moments with Luke and Leia. Even as a 6 year old talking about the movie in the schoolyard the next day we were all over that and the death star moments with Vader -the scenes where you weren't sure how it would play out.
Too much plot immunity can mess it up for a film as well. As an adult when I watch action movies the scenes with mooks don't catch me - I just see them as setting up for the real scene, you could drop them or change them to non fight scenes without much change in the story.
Compare it to a film like Full Metal Jacket - there's not a fight scene in that entire flick were you don't wonder if we're headed for a TPK. As such, the conflicts in it grab you a lot stronger, make you feel them much more, and leace you savoring the drama in between with that much more interest. It matters more. Even if the movie's genre as a whole is not my style.
bekkilyn_rpg
First Post
I was going to post a response last night but had trouble with the forums, so decided to wait, but now d4 has pretty much said again most of what I would have answered. 
I think it's possible to roleplay in-depth in killer campaigns as well as the campaigns which I enjoy, but I personally don't get as much out of them as I will always make throwaway characters for the killer-type campaigns. I just won't put in a lot of time into something which won't be long-lasting. It's the same reason I'll always use china plates and never use paper except under the most dire of circumstances or a picnic. Given a choice, I'll always go for what's quality and long-lasting and will hold its value or grow in value. The same goes for the characters I create. Unless it is just for practice games or one-nighters, I don't make throwaway characters. If I had to make 20 PC characters in a short period of time, I'd rather just not play at all, seriously. I just couldn't see spending the time on doing something so meaningless.
Good roleplaying can happen under any game system. I like d&d/d20. I like the fact that there's a rule for most anything when a rule is needed. Wastes a lot less time that way and saves more time for the fun stuff. When it does come to fights, I want them to be fun, not military survivalist strategies.
I think it's possible to roleplay in-depth in killer campaigns as well as the campaigns which I enjoy, but I personally don't get as much out of them as I will always make throwaway characters for the killer-type campaigns. I just won't put in a lot of time into something which won't be long-lasting. It's the same reason I'll always use china plates and never use paper except under the most dire of circumstances or a picnic. Given a choice, I'll always go for what's quality and long-lasting and will hold its value or grow in value. The same goes for the characters I create. Unless it is just for practice games or one-nighters, I don't make throwaway characters. If I had to make 20 PC characters in a short period of time, I'd rather just not play at all, seriously. I just couldn't see spending the time on doing something so meaningless.
Good roleplaying can happen under any game system. I like d&d/d20. I like the fact that there's a rule for most anything when a rule is needed. Wastes a lot less time that way and saves more time for the fun stuff. When it does come to fights, I want them to be fun, not military survivalist strategies.
cptg1481
First Post
Death = Yes
There are some inresting thoughts on this thread....
Not penalizing PCs for poor dice rolling is my fave.
What the?
Dice in the game represent the randomness of things, fate if you will, you roll bad you die.
Sometimes I just do poorly at something even if its something I have done well in the past and something I am very good at.
I told my players in the begining that while I take no perverse pleasure in the death of a PC I will not pull punches to stop it either. I roll all my to hit and damage rolls openly therefore fudging is not an option.
We've been playing this particular campaign for nigh on a year and I've had 3 deaths. One player accounts for two of them. Seems to have bad luck with saves and such.
There are some inresting thoughts on this thread....
Not penalizing PCs for poor dice rolling is my fave.
What the?
Dice in the game represent the randomness of things, fate if you will, you roll bad you die.
Sometimes I just do poorly at something even if its something I have done well in the past and something I am very good at.
I told my players in the begining that while I take no perverse pleasure in the death of a PC I will not pull punches to stop it either. I roll all my to hit and damage rolls openly therefore fudging is not an option.
We've been playing this particular campaign for nigh on a year and I've had 3 deaths. One player accounts for two of them. Seems to have bad luck with saves and such.
Kichwas
Half-breed
A smart player can outthink the dice by choosing actions where the impact is lessoned.cptg1481 said:
It's funny, but there are two things that happened for me around the same time. I changed my view on fudging with regards to DnD, and I stopped caring about the results of individual die rolls - which also by the way, ended my practice of minor fudging as a player...
I started to realize that while it may not be Marvel Universe where you have full control and your choices 100% dictate the results, you can apply strategy, in character roleplay, and tactics in DnD to produce results better than you'll get by letting fudging save you. You own your success and your failure.
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