Point Buy System

[Nonlethal Force]

I disagree intensely with the suggestion that PB makes things inherently fair. Even if you do use PB power levels are inherently highly variable. A 5th level fighter is not equal in power to a 5th level monk, who is not equal to a 5th level sorceror, and so on. This is then doubly, and quadruply true once you factor in skill and feat choices, magic items, and even the personality the player gives the character.

Very true. Personaly, I use PB method because I can say to player: "Go, make characters on your free time. Make 80 different varieties of the character. if you want. Adjust the ability scores the way you want them. When you have one, come to the next gaming session and we'll start playing. With PB, the players can always be working on new concept ideas because they don't need to be in my presence to roll the stats. And ... rolled stats do make or break a concept. If I roll a 16, 14, 14, 14, 10, 8 I have a much different potential than rolling an 18, 16, 12, 11, 11, 9. When you roll and the DM requires the rolls done in their presence, it also basically assumes character gen is done in the DMs presence. That takes time. Nothing wrong with it, mind you. But it does take time.

You need 4 good stats FFS. You just cant do that on a 32 pt buy

Sure you can, so long as a 14 an 12 are considered good in your campaign! I don't mean this to be a flippant or snippy reply, btw. i mean it seriously. Some players (and DMs) play in games where the only good starting stats are 16 and up. If that's the perspective of the game, then you are right that a paladin can't be played on a 32 point buy. But if the game assumes that 12s are okay, 14s are good, and anything above 14 is super and unusual then the paladin can be build just fine on a 32 point buy.

Look at the sample "Knight Protector" in CW. STR (21) DEX (13) CON (14) INT (12) WIS (12) CHA (16). The character is a 16th level character! Assuming for a second that all four of his ability boosts for gaining characte levels went into STR, then it makes the character:

STR 17 - 13 pts
DEX 13 - 5 pts
CON 14 - 6 pts
INT 12 - 4 pts
WIS 12 - 4 pts
CHA 16 - 10 pts

That's 42 pts ... but that's also not taking into account any magical ability boosters that a 16th level character would have. I think it is fairly safe to say that I could build a Paladin/Knight Protector than the one in the Comple Warrior with better stats on a 32 point buy. For that matter, a 32 point buy can likely build a better X/Y than anything presented by WotC books because they use less than a 32 point buy to generate their examples!

My point is not that you are wrong, at all. My point is that the classes that sufer from MADD are totally relative to the assumed power established as normal.

 

[KarinsDad]

Some classes(like the paladin) i wouldnt even dare play unless it was a high point buy or i got a good roll.

You need 4 good stats FFS. You just cant do that on a 32 pt buy.

Sure you can.

My wife is currently playing a Paladin that started out: Str 14, Int 14, Wis 13, Con 14, Dex 14, and Cha 14

This is a 35 point buy Paladin, but one could just as easily play a 32 point buy Str 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Con 14, Dex 14, and Cha 14 Paladin

Even a 25 point buy Paladin can be played: Str 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Con 12, Dex 12, and Cha 12, he just generally will not be as tough as the PC Fighter.

A lot of players want the 17 or 18 main stat, but that is not required for an enjoyable PC.

 

[EvilGM]

I run a gestalt campaign. We use a special point buy: 80 points (1 for 1, starting at 0, minimum stat is 3, max before race adjustments is 18)

 

[Question]

Low boosts to save, from class ability average damage/health, low amount of turn undead for divine feats.

 

[KarinsDad]

Low boosts to save, from class ability average damage/health, low amount of turn undead for divine feats.

Oh, you mean like the +4 to all saves at 2nd level with what I suggested here? What other class can get +4 to all of its saves due to ability scores at second level?

one could just as easily play a 32 point buy Str 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Con 14, Dex 14, and Cha 14 Paladin

Or turning undead 5 times per day at 4th level?

This is still very playable.


What I find interesting is the amount of entitlement that people express in the DND community any more. "Paladins suck without 45 or more point buy." There used to be a time in the 1E and 2E days when a character had to have a 15 (and usually 16) in an ability score (for most of them), just to get any +1. If a PC had a combined +4 in his ability modifiers, it was a tough PC.

32 point buy is anywhere from +4 (2 18s and 4 8s) to +10 to abilities (or +11 with the right stat / race combo) and it is considered not sufficent, especially when the game designers suggest 25 point buy which is +6 max (less for PCs who put 15 or higher in stats, up to 7 for some races)?

 

[Pickaxe]

What I find interesting is the amount of entitlement that people express in the DND community any more. "Paladins suck without 45 or more point buy." There used to be a time in the 1E and 2E days when a character had to have a 15 (and usually 16) in an ability score (for most of them), just to get any +1. If a PC had a combined +4 in his ability modifiers, it was a tough PC.

Well, 1e/2e is the point from which any such "entitlement" stems, IME/O. There seemed to be lots of characters with 18s out there, and I think part of the rationalization of basically giving characters high scores was the fact that there was essentially no difference between a 7 and a 14 in many cases.

That's one thing I thought 3e did well to fix, but there are still issues that go beyond the lingering 1e "entitlement" mentality that affect the PB/roll discussion. The paladin KD put out there is certainly playable, but I think many players have a sense that it's better to have one or a few strong abilities rather than have five or six good ones. A paladin pretty much has to fall in the latter camp (as KD's example illustrates), so many players will simply skip over the paladin option (at least at low PB) because they'd rather play the wizard or the barbarian or some other character concept that can "dump" multiple stats.

I have nothing against PB, but every campaign I've ever been in has rolled stats. Rolled stats at least give you the opportunity to roll a character with good stats and say, "Hmm, you know, this character could be a great paladin!" I've never seen the resentment that others suggest brews because of the possible disparities between rolled characters, but that's probably because a character with only one or two strong stats can still be very effective in certain classes.

One other thing I like about rolling (with little practical value): every number has a chance to come up in a starting character. Granted, no one is usually keeping the character with a 4, but, given the standard cost scheme for point buy, it seems like odd numbers are going to be pretty rare.

--Axe

 

[Warbringer]

For most of the reasons cited here, my player start with the stats 17,15,13,12,10,8.

 

[Shellman]

My group uses a 36 point buy for characters. This seems to give us slightly overpowered pc's to start with before level advancements.

 

[Christian]

For most of the reasons cited here, my player start with the stats 17,15,13,12,10,8.

Why not just use 32-point buy? Keeps the characters in that same power-range without making them cookie-cutter ...

 

[dvvega]

I use the 25 point buy in general because all monster CRs are based on 25 point buy for the PCs. The more points you give them, the easier time they will have getting through encounters.

I started with 32 point buy when I first started (I wanted heroic PCs) but they were more than heroic. With the 25 point buy they're not going to have bonuses in every stat, 32 point buy they can have bonuses everywhere - it makes a big difference.