Point Buy System

[shilsen]

My PCs get to start with 80 pts (not point buy) to divide between their stats. This works out to anywhere from 36 to 42 pts of point buy. I've never had a problem challenging them with appropriate CR encounters from the MM, even though they're supposedly designed for 25 point buy PCs.

 

[KarinsDad]

I started with 32 point buy when I first started (I wanted heroic PCs) but they were more than heroic. With the 25 point buy they're not going to have bonuses in every stat, 32 point buy they can have bonuses everywhere - it makes a big difference.

It actually makes a small difference.

Sure, a PC might have a 5% or 10% better chance of making a given saving throw, but 90% to 95% of the time, it is not going to change anything. The PC might do a few more points of damage per attack and hit slightly more often which might drop a given foe one round earlier, but the difference is not as big as it seems.

7 extra point buy points range from +2 more in 1 to 2 ability scores to +1 more in 2 to 4 ability scores. This is well within the range of probabilities of several of the random ability score generation methods in the DMG.

 

[KarinsDad]

My PCs get to start with 80 pts (not point buy) to divide between their stats. This works out to anywhere from 36 to 42 pts of point buy.

Doesn't this work out to 32 pts of point buy (14 14 14 14 12 12) to 50 pts of point buy (18 18 18 10 8 8), assuming no score can be below 8?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Like many others, I eliminated all random factors for character creation, as I've seen to many cases where a few rolls turned a character into a pure dominator, or made a fighter less robust than a thief. (3rd-level fighter with 13 HP in AD&D)

So I use point buy, and I use average HP.


If you want random stats with point buy, you can always perform a three dragon reading

 

[brehobit]

It actually makes a small difference.

Sure, a PC might have a 5% or 10% better chance of making a given saving throw, but 90% to 95% of the time, it is not going to change anything. The PC might do a few more points of damage per attack and hit slightly more often which might drop a given foe one round earlier, but the difference is not as big as it seems.

7 extra point buy points range from +2 more in 1 to 2 ability scores to +1 more in 2 to 4 ability scores. This is well within the range of probabilities of several of the random ability score generation methods in the DMG.

I'll disagree. The difference between a 16 STR and an 18 STR is pretty remarkable, (6 points). +1 attack and +2 damage (with a 2-handed weapon) is the equivalent of better-than 2 feats (weapon focus and weapon specialization).

Characters that suffer from MAD are difficult to pull off (in comparison to other classes) with 25 points. Monks in particular are more compeditive the more points everyone has, but paladins and the dual-stat casters are too.

Mark

 

[KarinsDad]

I'll disagree. The difference between a 16 STR and an 18 STR is pretty remarkable, (6 points). +1 attack and +2 damage (with a 2-handed weapon) is the equivalent of better-than 2 feats (weapon focus and weapon specialization).

Sure it can be better than these two feats. But, does that make a big difference in the game as per the poster who claimed that?

Does an 18 Str over a 16 Str allow a character to make a saving throw that the character would have missed?

Does an extra one or two points of damage per attack once the PC gets to level 15 really make that much of a difference against a dragon that has 300 hit points?

I agree that 32 point buy results in a more capable combat (and non-combat) PC than 25 point buy and in many specific instances, it makes a slight difference in the outcome of a combat. But, in the large scheme of things, that difference is pretty much white noise when compared to spells that do Level * D6 worth of damage, or abilities that allow an opponent to Hide in Plain Sight. Many times, the 16th Str Fighter with a two handed sword who averages 11 points of damage against an opponent with 30 hit points will take him out in 3 attacks, just like the 18th Str Fighter with a two handed sword who averages 13 points of damage against an opponent. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it does not.

A small +1 or +2 difference to a couple of ability scores helps. But, it is relatively minor compared to all of the other aspects of the game where a +1 or +2 modifier to a D20 roll is total white noise. 32 point buy over 25 point buy helps the PCs survive better, but a bad set of rolls could still result in a TPK.

At most, this is +1 to four ability scores (or +2 to upwards of two ability scores). This might be equivalent to a half level worth of ability at real low level, but at mid to high level, it won't hardly be noticed as the power and versatility of classes, items, and spells far outweight the power and versatility of ability scores. It will still help, but an extra point of damage when Fighters are doing 20 points of damage with an attack is relatively minor in the large scheme of things.

 

[brehobit]

At most, this is +1 to four ability scores (or +2 to upwards of two ability scores). This might be equivalent to a half level worth of ability at real low level, but at mid to high level, it won't hardly be noticed as the power and versatility of classes, items, and spells far outweight the power and versatility of ability scores. It will still help, but an extra point of damage when Fighters are doing 20 points of damage with an attack is relatively minor in the large scheme of things.

I think we are mostly in agreement. At low level (which is most of what I play, say 2-6) stats make a big difference. I'd say a 2nd level fighter with 32 points would easily be as good as a 3rd level fighter with 25 points given the same equitment. (2 less hit points, +1 to hit and damage, +1 to AC). While this wouldn't be true for most casters, stats to matter a lot to the non-casters at low level.

I can see that at high level you have so many abilities and so many item-based bonuses, that the few +1s coming from stats might not be that important. But for a fighter type I think that the bonuses to hit points, AC and/or attack and damage will still be significant. Having 10% more hit points or having an occasional attack miss that would have otherwise hit can keep you alive long enough...

At a guess 10 points is about one ECL. Maybe 14.

Mark

 

[shilsen]

Doesn't this work out to 32 pts of point buy (14 14 14 14 12 12) to 50 pts of point buy (18 18 18 10 8 8), assuming no score can be below 8?

Crap! I left out a "generally", since I meant to write "This generally works out to anywhere from 36 to 42 pts of point buy," since I was thinking of the choices the players had made.

Thanks for the catch.

 

[Zimbel16]

While this wouldn't be true for most casters, stats to matter a lot to the non-casters at low level.

I should note that one high stat means a lot to major casters at high levels (+2-3 spells/day, +1 save DCs) - this is somewhat easier to manage with point buy than random.