Points of Light and the Forgotten Realms

[hong]

Nothing would get me more excited about a RSE than a Bioware CRPG about it.

Although to be fair, nothing would get me more excited about the week-old milk carton in my fridge than a Bioware CRPG about it. I am totally a Bioware fanboy, and have been ever since Baldur's Gate.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It is our fault that we bought Douglas Nile's Dark Walker on Moonshae that started this whole she-bang.

Nah, it's the fault of the people who didn't play AD&D, but bought FR novels in droves due to the slightly stagnant state of fantasy literature in the mid-late '80s. That's not the same as the players, I suspect, because FR players alone do not a New York Times Bestseller make, I would suggest.

Though I will accept responsibility for the Alias business, I bought all those novels, even when it got damn silly, I must admit. I even ran my players through the Curse of the Azure Bonds adventure. That was huuuuuuge fun actually, it's quite a nice adventure, in a late 1E kind of way.

 

[ruleslawyer]

As much as it pains me to say it:
The Forgotten Realms Novels eclipse the sales of the FR RPG materials by a lot. The novels will continue to set the canon for the realms. The Uber-NPCs will still exist as long as they sell. RSE's sell books, therefore RSE's will continue to happen. Do not put the cart before the horse. The Grey box realms were fantastic. It is our fault that we bought Douglas Nile's Dark Walker on Moonshae that started this whole she-bang. Sure, Dragonlance set the precedent but that's just a quibble.

Well put indeed!

As a long-time Realms DM, I really do get the feeling that I'm the happier for having avoided the FR novels pretty much entirely ("Elminster at the Magefair" is pretty much the only FR tale I've ever read outside of the story bits in game materials). My own introduction in the Realms was back in the early days of Dragon, and I've never looked back. I happen to really, truly like Ed Greenwood's writing... although he may present a totally different character in the novels, and from what I've read on the boards he's got a sad penchant (shared, incidentally, by otherwise stellar writers like Leiber and Moorcock) for the...erm, ribald. IME, Elminster's sexual exploits have come across as *humanizing* rather than as Ed's "happy-time material." Ed's stated intention was to model him closer to Belgarath than Gandalf, and I think it comes off well in the game materials. It also seems quite convincing to me; old gruff sage aside, I've seen how charm works in the RW, and I can easily believe the exploits detailed in, say, Volo's Guide to Waterdeep given that most of the women involved are either paid company or apprentices. (Ever walk around a university campus and see some of those professor-student couples, people?)

Where the novels go is another thing entirely. (I don't mind the whole "merging with the Goddess of Magic" thing coming off as sexual, incidentally, since it's a common mythic trope to anthropomorphize a grant of power as intercourse, but who knows how it's written.)

In short, I *like* the character of the Realms NPCs as they're presented in the game materials; I like Ed's phraseology and naming conventions, and I do actually like the Chosen... to the extent that they're presented in the game materials, as itinerant, erratic demigods. I quite like Elminster, who AFAICT is there pretty much entirely to be a narrator. Now, changing him from narrator to protagonist sounds like a disaster (and I imagine it's been; I can't even begin to visualize what "Elminster in Myth Drannor" or "Elminster in Hell" were like as reads), but as a narrator, he is used IMO quite brilliantly.

 

[humble minion]

As much as it pains me to say it:
The Forgotten Realms Novels eclipse the sales of the FR RPG materials by a lot. The novels will continue to set the canon for the realms. The Uber-NPCs will still exist as long as they sell. RSE's sell books, therefore RSE's will continue to happen. Do not put the cart before the horse. The Grey box realms were fantastic. It is our fault that we bought Douglas Nile's Dark Walker on Moonshae that started this whole she-bang. Sure, Dragonlance set the precedent but that's just a quibble.

A fair bit of truth here. Novels drive FR, no point arguing about it.

But I don't necessarily think RSEs are what sell the books. As far as I know (I have to admit my tolerance for FR novels has basically gone through the floor since I discovered the existence of better stuff out there) pretty much every single FR trilogy in the past few years has been a RSE of some sort or another. But (and I stand to be proved wrong by bestseller lists, sales figures etc) the heroes of series like Return of the Archwizards, Last Mythal, Rage of Dragons, etc, etc, etc don't seem to have nearly the same traction as the characters from earlier novels - the Icewind Dale and Dark Elf trilogies, and the Arilyn Moonblade books in particular (the Erevis Cale books might be a more recent example, though admittedly I haven't read them and only going on hearsay). And notably, none of these series had any great metaplot/setting implications. Small-scale plots lead to greater intimacy with the characters lead to more emotional involvement lead to greater reader loyalty. Or at least that's my experience, as one guy who kept on reading the Drizzt novels way, waaay after they'd polevaulted the megalodon.

My gut feeling is that small-scale, lower-level FR novels can sell just as well as the drearily repetitive apocalypses that seem to beset poor old Faerun every second Thursday. The main problem I see is that the current regular FR novel customers - overwhelmingly young adults, at a guess - probably LIKE the RSEs and will miss them if they go, and it will require a non-trivial level of writing skill to convince them that low-level stuff can be just as cool and interesting. Of course, the whole setting reboot is a convincing argument that pleasing 'current customers' is not WotCs priority 1 in the whole business...

 

[ruleslawyer]

Nothing would get me more excited about a RSE than a Bioware CRPG about it.

Although to be fair, nothing would get me more excited about the week-old milk carton in my fridge than a Bioware CRPG about it. I am totally a Bioware fanboy, and have been ever since Baldur's Gate.

So I take it that you love Bioware with every part of your body (including your pee-pee)?

Sorry. See, I post on these forums in order to *avoid* playing CRPGs (I've worked out the respective time costs a bit...)

 

[GSHamster]

I kind of like the Forgotten Realms the way they are, and don't really want to see them changed too drastically. Toughening up the villains so they're not complete push-overs (as was done for 3E) was a good idea. But pushing the villains into ascendancy, a la a Points of Light setting, seems excessive, and out of character for the Realms.

That being said, I'd love to see a one-off "Mirror Universe" Forgotten Realms. That would be pretty cool.

 

[Irda Ranger]

the heroes of series like Return of the Archwizards, Last Mythal, Rage of Dragons, etc, etc, etc don't seem to have nearly the same traction as the characters from earlier novels - the Icewind Dale and Dark Elf trilogies, and the Arilyn Moonblade books in particular (the Erevis Cale books might be a more recent example, though admittedly I haven't read them and only going on hearsay). And notably, none of these series had any great metaplot/setting implications. Small-scale plots lead to greater intimacy with the characters lead to more emotional involvement lead to greater reader loyalty. Or at least that's my experience, as one guy who kept on reading the Drizzt novels way, waaay after they'd polevaulted the megalodon.

My gut feeling is that small-scale, lower-level FR novels can sell just as well as the drearily repetitive apocalypses that seem to beset poor old Faerun every second Thursday. The main problem I see is that the current regular FR novel customers - overwhelmingly young adults, at a guess - probably LIKE the RSEs and will miss them if they go, and it will require a non-trivial level of writing skill to convince them that low-level stuff can be just as cool and interesting. Of course, the whole setting reboot is a convincing argument that pleasing 'current customers' is not WotCs priority 1 in the whole business...

I wholly agree, which is what bugs me no end about the "RSE novels." I don't want to guess what WotC's systems are for picking novels and plots, but I feel like it must be some system that selects for the 'obvious' plots, rather than the human level ones. The first couple books about Alias were great, and none of them had to burn down any kingdoms.

Give me some good novels about characters I can enjoy reading, who have human problems and and live in a world we can at least imagine. No more Chosen as protagonists.

Hell, I'd probably pick up a new Drizzt novel if someone at WotC told RAS to "just tell a story - and don't screw anything up." I bet that would get much better results than the current "Ok RAS, here's where we want to take the setting, so be sure to tell the story of how they happen" system that seems to prevail at present.

 

[Uzzy]

When you're adventuring in Shadowdale, and something's going down, telling the players when they ask that Elminster is out of town again sounds like (and is) crap after the second or third time it happens.

The notion that Elminster, or whomever, can't be bothered to step in and solve a lot of these problems is even worse, and directly contradicts the published alignments for the characters.

No. You tell them that Elminster is out of town dealing with Larloch's latest plot. Or the Malaugryms. Or Shades. Or anyone one of the many, many high level evil powers who could annihilate the PC's in one stroke. So the adventurers can deal with the little orc problem, rather then bother someone who has bigger problems to deal with.

Apparently you play a different game than I do! I play D&D, where killing people multiple times is not only possible, but practically 'likely.' You're aware of the on-again, dead-again relationship Elminster and Manshoon had going for a while there, aren't you? It's hardly like the PC's are the only ones with access to Raise Dead, True Resurrection, etc.

Of course. Spoiler. However, Khelben's dead. Permanently. He's done his job, and is hanging out in Arvandor now. If that doesn't suit you, the bring him back!

I read it, thanks. They're still a problem to me. Not just them, but "Them + the Novels + the RSE's", combined, are my problem. I, whether a player or DM, am clearly not in control of where the world is heading or where I can take it. I have less control over the future of the Forgotten Realms than I do over the future of America here in the real world (speaking solely as a citizen who can vote and write to his representatives). In FR, I don't even get that one vote. It's just *BAM*, your campaign and everything you've done for the last two years is gone and buried under the torid prose of R.A. Salvatore, or whoever.

You have all the control over the future of the Forgotten Realms. At least in your home game. If you don't like the latest RSE, then don't use it. Heck, my own game is very different to the canonical one.

What's FRCS? I stopped running the Realms about three years ago so I may well have forgotten. Is that the 3E FR main book?

FRCS = Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. It's the main book for the Realms, yeah.

As for the NPC's, Eberron did it better. There are people who are powerful for political reasons, but level-wise they're mostly 5-7th level. That really lets the PC's be the obvious, first-choice heroes of the setting.

The PC's are very much the heroes in my FR game. *shrug*

My gut feeling is that small-scale, lower-level FR novels can sell just as well as the drearily repetitive apocalypses that seem to beset poor old Faerun every second Thursday. The main problem I see is that the current regular FR novel customers

Heh. My favourite novels are the ones with the small scale and lower levels. Those by Elaine Cunningham, for instance. Give me those anyday!

Anyway, I think we've sidetracked this thread a little! I'd hate to see the 4th Edition Realms lose most of it's flavour. Heck, I'd rather see the back of the High Level NPC's then lose Waterdeep, Cormyr, Sembia and the Dales as they are now. Gradual change is fine, as the sourcebooks are written in such a way that even people with slightly alternate Realms can make use of them. Most of the time, at least. I've not had the Elven Crusade in my Realms, so I've little use for the new modules. But I've still got use for the likes of Champions of Valour, Magic of Faerún etc. A 100 year jump would likely kill any use for the 4th Edition Realms products in my campaign. Which would be sad.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

No. You tell them that Elminster is out of town dealing with Larloch's latest plot. Or the Malaugryms. Or Shades. Or anyone one of the many, many high level evil powers who could annihilate the PC's in one stroke. So the adventurers can deal with the little orc problem, rather then bother someone who has bigger problems to deal with.

Elminster being perpetually out of town requires more suspension of disbelief than hit points do.

If he effectively can't exist in the game world, he needs to be changed or dumped.

 

[Fobok]

Anyway, I think we've sidetracked this thread a little! I'd hate to see the 4th Edition Realms lose most of it's flavour. Heck, I'd rather see the back of the High Level NPC's then lose Waterdeep, Cormyr, Sembia and the Dales as they are now. Gradual change is fine, as the sourcebooks are written in such a way that even people with slightly alternate Realms can make use of them. Most of the time, at least. I've not had the Elven Crusade in my Realms, so I've little use for the new modules. But I've still got use for the likes of Champions of Valour, Magic of Faerún etc. A 100 year jump would likely kill any use for the 4th Edition Realms products in my campaign. Which would be sad.

So, why not, just like you didn't have an Elven Crusade in your game, not have the 100 year jump forward? Maybe even have a high-level campaign where your players can stop the spellplague. (Once we know more about what it is.)

I don't think I've ever run a game, in any system, that takes a canon universe and stays canon after the first session. I just pick a point in the timeline where I want to start, and use it to start the setting, and have events run from there based on what the players do.