Poll: Do you want Save-Or-Die in 4th Edition

[Scholar & Brutalman]

With a few qualifiers:

i) I asking about Save-Or-Die, not Save-Or-Nerf or even Save-Or-Petrification.

ii) In 4e, it would probably be Hit-Then-Die.

iii) Yes, the poll will only represent a self-selected subset of subscribers to ENWorld, who are themselves a self-selected subset of D&D players.

 

[an_idol_mind]

I like save or die effects. However, I don't think they would work well in 4th edition's system of attacking the saves. Having a player roll a d20 to avoid instant death is one thing. Rolling a die behind the DM's screen and then telling the player that his character is dead is something else entirely.

 

[Pygon]

As much I don't enjoy having to save or die, death effects are as much a part of the game as being disintegrated and petrified. The hazards are there. The trick is to notice them and counter them. Death Ward? Granted, I haven't run a lot of high level games, so I haven't dealt with Power Word Kills, Symbols of Death, Wail of the Banshee, etc. But my ranger got nailed by a Phantasmal Killer with two bad saves. It happens. I guess the real sticker is not knowing what spell is going to be cast at you. However, if you know what a Bodak looks like, at least then you know what to expect.

I still subscribe to the idea of the player rolling the save vs. the DM rolling the hit. I plan to give my players the option of using the d20 + defense >= DC (22 + attack bonus) alternative

 

[FourthBear]

I think that save or dies (one roll, you're dead) should be removed from the various Player's Handbooks and the Monster Manual critters. In the Dungeon Master's Guide there should be a section on creating new abilities for monsters/NPCs/PCs. In this section, it should recommend not to create save or die effects. However, it should also discuss when it is appropriate to "break the rules" in a campaign. Just as I would think that giving a standard PC extensive time travel powers in a D&D campaign shouldn't be put in the core, there are times when a time travel adventure would just be right. Similarly, a monster, villain or artifact with save or die powers should be something a DM deliberately creates knowing full well what issues could arise.

This is assuming that we're talking about save or die effects that work on opponents that are as tough or tougher than you. I don't think there's any problem with save or die effects that are enabled on significantly weaker creatures. So perhaps some powers could auto-kill if you exceed some defense threshold that only a weaker creature would have. Of course, this would seem to work just fine with current ablative type damage as well.

 

[Nifft]

Depends on everything.​

In 3e, we have easy access to death-defying magic, from death ward to reincarnation, starting at 7th level.

If 4e removes the death-effects, and the death-defying magic, things balance out fine. Persistent condition penalties, which cost a bundle to remove, would be just about as bad as (temporary) death.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mercule]

I said "wibble". I don't want it as common as it seems to be in 3E. Nor do I want raise dead magics to be common (well, exist, really -- leave it to Orphean quests).

I do, however, want there to be a very few, very potent critters/wizards with the ability to kill things dead. Really, truly dead.

If the option is to have save-or-die and raise deads in parity or to have neither, then my answer is an absolute, unconditional NEITHER. Raises should be vanishingly rare and difficult to come by. Save-or-die should be somewhat more common, but still quite rare.

 

[Eosin the Red]

Save or die has been banned from my games for a long time. It is reserved for special occasions involving the Chief Boss.

 

[A'koss]

I personally hate the revolving door of death and resurrection in the game and if 4e takes steps to make it a little harder to die, removing the SoD effects while making it harder (much harder) to come back - I'll be a happy camper.

As many others feel, SoD has the potential for being a serious fun-breaker, on both sides of the screen. Just as the player doesn't much like getting killed in the opening round against the BBEG after 3 months or RT adventuring to track him down, neither do many DMs like seeing their final, climatic battle reduced to single opening round bad roll.

 

[Gloombunny]

I'm in favor of shifting all save-or-die effects, and many save-or-something-not-quite-as-horrible-as-death effects, to work similarly to how disintegrate or power word: kill work in 3e.

For instance, flesh to stone might read "The target of this spell takes 3d6 Dexterity damage. If your spell roll did not beat her Fortitude defense, the Dexterity damage is halved. If her Dexterity is reduced to 0 or less, she is permanently turned to stone." or something like that.

 

[Thunderfoot]

Life sucks and sometimes bad things happen to good people, save or die is just the mechanical representation...deal with it.