D&D General Poll: How tough should 20th Level Fighters be? (MCU edition)

[Crimson Longinus]

If we assume strength 30 and large size somehow the lifting capacity would be 3,600 pounds. With powerful build that goes up to 7,200. That's 3.6 tons a tiny, tiny percent of The Hulk's MCU capacity guesstimate of 100 tons. Depending on which movie you use as a guide, Hulk can toss around tanks weighing over 50 tons.

That's one heck of an epic boon you're handing out especially since a 20th level fighter isn't even epic levels yet.

Whilst I don't think a 20 level fighter (or barbarian, or anything) should be nearly as strong as Hulk, I think the official lifting math is a tad silly. I think it should ramp up significantly past strength 18, as otherwise many big creatures are actually pathetically weak, and there's no way to represent truly super strong things. Under the current rules Thor would need strength of at least 7000!

 

[Gammadoodler]

That's like saying that my toy Tonka truck should be a real truck that can haul tons of rock. It's not even apples to oranges, it's a grape to an award winning sized pumpkin.

It's comparing one melee damage dealer to another (I know fighters can be ranged too).

The flipside comparison is level 20 wizards to Dr. Strange, and it's nowhere near the Tonka truck to real truck level of difference.

That there is this level of difference is why these threads start. Because some characters show up to their level 20 work sites in fully kitted F350s with the extended cab and the towing package, and some people show up with some Hasbro- manufactured plastic playthings.

 

[Oofta]

It's comparing one melee damage dealer to another (I know fighters can be ranged too).

The flipside comparison is level 20 wizards to Dr. Strange, and it's nowhere near the Tonka truck to real truck level of difference.

That there is this level of difference is why these threads start. Because some characters show up to their level 20 work sites in fully kitted F350s with the extended cab and the towing package, and some people show up with some Hasbro- manufactured plastic playthings.

Maybe in your games. I've never seen it in mine. When I was playing that 20th level fighter I wasn't overly concerned about keeping score, but it seemed like there were times when I contributed more than the casters and other times when the situation was right for the wizard to cast meteor storm.

There's no such thing as perfect balance, but it's nowhere near the issue that it was back in pre 4E days.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Maybe in your games. I've never seen it in mine. When I was playing that 20th level fighter I wasn't overly concerned about keeping score, but it seemed like there were times when I contributed more than the casters and other times when the situation was right for the wizard to cast meteor storm.

There's no such thing as perfect balance, but it's nowhere near the issue that it was back in pre 4E days.

That's fine. I've got no issue with different perspectives on what the right level should be. I may disagree vigorously, but your perspectives are yours.

My only real "beef" was that proving that things aren't the same in the current state is not the same as proving that they shouldn't be the same in the ideal state.

 

[Oofta]

That's fine. I've got no issue with different perspectives on what the right level should be. I may disagree vigorously, but your perspectives are yours.

My only real "beef" was that proving that things aren't the same in the current state is not the same as proving that they shouldn't be the same in the ideal state.

Different people want different things and games vary. Like I said above (I think it was this thread) I could see a mythic heroes game using D&D rules, I just don't think it should be the same game.

 

[Stalker0]

That’s why I couldn’t never buy the idea that level 20 characters were superheroes or invincible.

You mean like the 9th level wizard spell... invulnerability?

The eternal issue is not that high level dnd represents superheroes....it absolutely does. Its that its only reserved for spellcasters to feel that way.

 

[Stalker0]

Whilst I don't think a 20 level fighter (or barbarian, or anything) should be nearly as strong as Hulk, I think the official lifting math is a tad silly. I think it should ramp up significantly past strength 18, as otherwise many big creatures are actually pathetically weak, and there's no way to represent truly super strong things. Under the current rules Thor would need strength of at least 7000!

I also think people are looking at the wrong things here. When you think of teh 20th level fighter as "Hulk", its not so much "I can literally lift anything". Its the notion: "I do so much damage that I can rip apart any enemy that comes across me, and I'm so durable that almost nothing can stop me".


This model of the 20th level fighter is: Yes a 20th level wizard can teleport, alter reality, summon demons, etc. But....there is nothing scarier in the multiverse than facing a 20th level fighter directly in combat. That to me is the Hulk or Thor model of fighter strength.

As an example, I have long run a campaign with an organization of high level people. This group has 9th level magic at their command, and yet all agree that the strongest among them is the 20th level fighter. For a long time, my group always wondered why that was, until finally they were in the final fight and got to fight along side this guy.

He was a 20th level champion fighter with max hp, a legendary action, his indomitables automatically succeeded at the save, and most importantly, his artifact weapon (+4) automatically dispelled (or disintegrating in the case of force effects) any magic it touched. No force cage or wall could hold him, summons were ground to dirt at his feet. The party's wizard, 12th level himself who was very powerful and very cocky, looked at the party (who had faced a CR 30 group of githyanki and survived) and said "I would be terrified to face this guy."


That to me is what a 20th level fighter should be about.

 

[Cadence]

You mean like the 9th level wizard spell... invulnerability?

The eternal issue is not that high level dnd represents superheroes....it absolutely does. Its that its only reserved for spellcasters to feel that way.

The fighters could have spent more time reading and less time goofing around hitting each other with sticks when they were growing up... :-(

I wish my employer would give me time off to work for a year on E6/E8/E10 things.

 

[Oofta]

You mean like the 9th level wizard spell... invulnerability?

The eternal issue is not that high level dnd represents superheroes....it absolutely does. Its that its only reserved for spellcasters to feel that way.

Great time for the BBEG to dominate.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Its that its only reserved for spellcasters to feel that way.

But it isn't really, it just depends on what you need to feel super-hero-like.

Some examples of features that feel super-hero-ish to me are:

• Survivor (you literally heal yourself when less than half HP)
• Action Surge (you can act twice a fast, gaining up to 4 attacks)
• Timeless Body (you don't age and no longer need food/water)
• Reliable Talent (yeah, you're that good)
• Stroke of Luck (no reroll, just a hit becomes a miss, very Hawkeye-like IMO)

I would imagine in some super-hero games, abilities such as those would certainly be considered a super power.