Population explosion in World of Greyhawk?

[Ulrick]

Shoot! I just looking at the original World of Greyhawk Boxed set from 1983. But I left it at home.

But do seem to remember just before they came out with From the Ashes that the populations were boosted up quite a bit.


I noticed this population change a few years ago.
In my own campaign, I've explained this away by stating that despite all the trouble in recent years, the weather has been near perfect from season to season. Farmland has produced an abundance of crops. Thus famine isn't as common.

Priests have been curing the sick. In civilized lands bathing is practiced. Thus life expectancy has gone up.

Yeah, I know the population wouldn't explode like it did in the source books, but there is a reason behind it.

A very dark and disturbing reason that I gather from past civilizations from our own Earth.

A drastic population explosion means some kind of disaster is imminent. Like that which happened on Easter Island.

Ulrick

 

[Rashak Mani]

I know Shark would be giving you a more detailed explanation... but in very simple terms what determines population is basically Food Production and Culture. No Food no people... no sex/wanting kids no babies...

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

Just for curiosities sake... how do Forgotten Realms countries compare in terms of Population ? Overcrowded too ?

FR populations are pretty solid. Fairly large countries like Thay have a population of no more than 4,924,000 citizens. A kingdom like Cormyr has no more than 1,360,800. The largest city on Faerûn is Skuld in Mulhorand with a population of no more than 204,538 citizens...

Seem pretty close to RW middle age demographics.

-Zarrock

 

[Quasqueton]

FR populations are pretty solid. Fairly large countries like Thay have a population of no more than 4,924,000 citizens. A kingdom like Cormyr has no more than 1,360,800. The largest city on Faerûn is Skuld in Mulhorand with a population of no more than 204,538 citizens...

Seem pretty close to RW middle age demographics.

-Zarrock

But in the RW middle ages, humans were the only creatures. People/humans lived *everywhere* -- mountains, swamps, forests, etc. People/humans were the good guys, bad guys, and the reclusive guys. Where would all the orcs, goblins, ogres, dragons, elves, dwarves, etc. be? With so many people/humans in these lands, there is no room for the orc tribes, lost temples, dwarf mines, giant lairs, dragon dens, etc. without plopping them down in the middle of settled territory.

But I didn't want to argue the comparison of RW demographics with WoG demographics -- I was asking how and when the WoG populations got changed. Was the reason for the increase in populations to match RW pops?

Quasqueton

 

[coyote6]

Hmm, if Keoland had all of 300,000 people (over how many square miles?), it's army would be fairly small. Said army would have even fewer higher-level characters. Spread out over all that territory, they'd be hard-pressed to defend Keoland, never mind retaking Geoff, Sterich, aiding other neighbors, or trying to fight the Brotherhood in Sea Princes territory.

Heck, spread that thin, the standard hill giant raiding party (6-9 hill giants plus 2-4 dire wolves) could come and go pretty much at will. Stopping such would require stripping some other area of troops.

<shrug> Higher populations don't bug me. The lower populations wouldn't either, but all those wars (including the pre-From the Ashes wars) wouldn't make much sense.

 

[S'mon]

FR populations are pretty solid. Fairly large countries like Thay have a population of no more than 4,924,000 citizens. A kingdom like Cormyr has no more than 1,360,800. The largest city on Faerûn is Skuld in Mulhorand with a population of no more than 204,538 citizens...

Seem pretty close to RW middle age demographics.

-Zarrock

Real world demographics - medieval France had a population of over 20 million! England's population of 4 million was halved to 2 million by the Black Death.

Don't know much about FR, but aren't Waterdeep (500,000) and Calimshan (1-2 million) larger than Skuld?

 

[S'mon]

Hmm, if Keoland had all of 300,000 people (over how many square miles?), it's army would be fairly small. Said army would have even fewer higher-level characters. Spread out over all that territory, they'd be hard-pressed to defend Keoland, never mind retaking Geoff, Sterich, aiding other neighbors, or trying to fight the Brotherhood in Sea Princes territory.

Heck, spread that thin, the standard hill giant raiding party (6-9 hill giants plus 2-4 dire wolves) could come and go pretty much at will. Stopping such would require stripping some other area of troops.

<shrug> Higher populations don't bug me. The lower populations wouldn't either, but all those wars (including the pre-From the Ashes wars) wouldn't make much sense.

You've basically explained the need for feudalism in medieval society.
You don't need big standing national armies to fight raiders if every village has its own manor with lord, knight(s), men-at-arms and levies. In the case of a major incursion like your 6-9 hill giants I'd expect the local baron to summon the resources of several villages to deal with it. In Greyhawk a barony may be 900 square miles - 15 miles from the lord's castle in any direction - enough for several villages even with low population density. RW there might be 90,000 people in that area, in Greyhawk maybe only 4500 or so, but that's enough to field 450 levies, including knights, archers etc.

 

[Rashak Mani]

S´Mon what is the proportion you use for Pop - Fighting men ?

 

[Quasqueton]

<bump>

 

[teitan]

Shrinking

Just for curiosities sake... how do Forgotten Realms countries compare in terms of Population ? Overcrowded too ?

Well, actually, the Realms seem to have shrunk immensely population wise, some by over a million. That is within cities even.

Jason