D&D 5E (2014) Potions of spells which require concentration

Mephista · Jun 6, 2015

Mike tweeted that potions that involve a spell that usually requires Concentration still involves Concentration. Personally, I'm going to stick with that. Closest thing to an official ruling we have on the matter.

Sword of Spirit · Jun 6, 2015

Mike seems to misremember the rules about 20%+ of the time since the books all came out. The impression I get is that since he has stated that he has more or less moved on to other things than the core books, he really isn't keeping the details of the rules in his mental RAM anymore. Jeremy Crawford is really the guy you need to ask. He tends to be right 95%+ of the time.

Wik · Jun 6, 2015

Rules as written, a potion requires concentration. See page 141 of the DMG:

Many items, such as potions, bypass the casting of the spell and confer the spell's effects, with their usual duration.

In other words, you'd be stuck concentrating. I kind of get the flavour here - if you're invisible, and you get hit, you have to try to focus on the invisibility, lest you lose the magic (or, if it's a sillier game, burp it out).

honestly, though, I think the potion miscibility table is a better balancer. We've houseruled that potions do not require concentration, but that the table it always rolled on (and I've put together a slightly different table than that in the DMG, so that players have no idea of the odds of good vs. bad results).

Manbearcat · Jun 6, 2015

I would stick with using Concentration for potions. Otherwise, I would expect to hear a few tales of woe of 11th level + BBEG spellcasters loaded up on the classic defense/mobility combos in the next few years. And resultant disgruntled gish and pure spellcaster players who endure their GMs pulling out the exclusive access to the offscreen, contingency trump card of "Concentration mechanic(?)...what Concentration mechanic...UH VILLIANOUS SPELLCASTER TOILING AWAY IN HIS TOWER, TWIRLING HIS EVIL MUSTACHIO, EATING EVIL SANDWICHES WHILE BREWING POTIONS FOR JUST SUCH AN OCCASION...DURRRRR!"

Let the spellcasting-balance-mechanic-bypassing arms race between GMs and PCs begin!

Sword of Spirit · Jun 7, 2015

Wik said:
Rules as written, a potion requires concentration. See page 141 of the DMG:

In other words, you'd be stuck concentrating.

I disagree with your interpretation. The duration of a spell is not the same as the effect of the spell. You are not turned into the caster of the spell (for whom concentration would apply).

Now, if you wanted to argue that the text could be interpreted to say that, as was humorously suggested, the caster (wherever they might be) must concentrate on the spell, then you would have a reasonable argument, although it would lead to what seems to be a clearly erroneous conclusion.

And remember, all of the example potions that confer the effects of a spell requiring concentration (with one exception) go out of their way to say that you don't have to concentrate.

(Also, contrast your quote with the immediately previous sentence in the DMG.)

Wik · Jun 7, 2015

Sword of Spirit said:
I disagree with your interpretation. The duration of a spell is not the same as the effect of the spell. You are not turned into the caster of the spell (for whom concentration would apply).

Now, if you wanted to argue that the text could be interpreted to say that, as was humorously suggested, the caster (wherever they might be) must concentrate on the spell, then you would have a reasonable argument, although it would lead to what seems to be a clearly erroneous conclusion.

And remember, all of the example potions that confer the effects of a spell requiring concentration (with one exception) go out of their way to say that you don't have to concentrate.

(Also, contrast your quote with the immediately previous sentence in the DMG.)

The previous sentence in the DMG is this:

The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration.

This is ALSO saying that a potion requires concentration, unless stated otherwise. And since whether a spell requires concentration is detailed in the DURATION part of the spell, it makes sense that if a spell requires concentration, and potions use the same duration as the spell, if the spell requires concentration ,so does drinking the potion.

It's pretty cut and dried, Rules-As-Written.

That being said, I don't like the rule either, and I suggested potion miscibility is a better, more enjoyable fix to the "mountain of buffs" problem some posters have spotted.

Sword of Spirit · Jun 7, 2015

But since potions bypass the casting of the spell, concentration cannot apply, as it is something that the caster does, and these spells explicitly bypass being cast.

Here's how the text reads:

"Casting a Spell
When a character casts any spell the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects.
...
Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends." - PBR p. 79.

Concentration is an element of duration, which is organized as a subtopic under the broader heading of "Casting a Spell." You therefore refers to the caster not a recipient of any particular spell effect. I'm talking about the arrangement of the document and its logic, which is clear from just looking at that page and section.

Now, the DMG gives us:

"Some magic items allow a user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell level, doesn't expend any of the user's spell slots, and requires no components, unless the item's description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration. Many items, such as potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell's effects, with their usual duration." - DMG p. 141

My argument entirely rests on the fact that the drinker of a potion is explicitly not the caster of the spell, and concentration can only apply to the caster of a spell. If they were going to make an exception to say that drinkers of potions need to concentrate as if they had cast the spell, they would have had to specifically call it out (which they did not) since the general rule is that concentration is solely for the caster, not the recipient of an effect.

I understand where you are coming from with regards to the duration line. Concentration is considered part of duration, so "normal duration" should include concentration. This is a real problem with the text's clarity. But in the case of potions, if their duration did include concentration, they wouldn't work at all, since there is no caster to concentrate on them. It doesn't say the drinker is treated as the caster--it says they receive the effects of the spell while bypassing casting it.

Wik · Jun 7, 2015

Sword of Spirit said:
But since potions bypass the casting of the spell, concentration cannot apply, as it is something that the caster does, and these spells explicitly bypass being cast.

Here's how the text reads:

"Casting a Spell
When a character casts any spell the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects.
...
Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends." - PBR p. 79.

Concentration is an element of duration, which is organized as a subtopic under the broader heading of "Casting a Spell." You therefore refers to the caster not a recipient of any particular spell effect. I'm talking about the arrangement of the document and its logic, which is clear from just looking at that page and section.

Now, the DMG gives us:

"Some magic items allow a user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell level, doesn't expend any of the user's spell slots, and requires no components, unless the item's description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration. Many items, such as potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell's effects, with their usual duration." - DMG p. 141

My argument entirely rests on the fact that the drinker of a potion is explicitly not the caster of the spell, and concentration can only apply to the caster of a spell. If they were going to make an exception to say that drinkers of potions need to concentrate as if they had cast the spell, they would have had to specifically call it out (which they did not) since the general rule is that concentration is solely for the caster, not the recipient of an effect.

I understand where you are coming from with regards to the duration line. Concentration is considered part of duration, so "normal duration" should include concentration. This is a real problem with the text's clarity. But in the case of potions, if their duration did include concentration, they wouldn't work at all, since there is no caster to concentrate on them. It doesn't say the drinker is treated as the caster--it says they receive the effects of the spell while bypassing casting it.

Whoa, dude. That's some huge legalese going on right there. Drawing an argument from the minutiae of the text and ignoring the direct comments of the designers based on "bypassing the casting of the spell" line is, well, lawyer-y. To be honest, I did that stuff in Pathfinder long enough, and no more. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Not some sort of weird, blood-sucking duck hybrid that can't echo or something.

Not that I believe it's a good rule. I just think that's what the rule states, fairly clearly.

pemerton · Jun 7, 2015

Sword of Spirit said:
But since potions bypass the casting of the spell, concentration cannot apply, as it is something that the caster does, and these spells explicitly bypass being cast.

<snip>

My argument entirely rests on the fact that the drinker of a potion is explicitly not the caster of the spell, and concentration can only apply to the caster of a spell. If they were going to make an exception to say that drinkers of potions need to concentrate as if they had cast the spell, they would have had to specifically call it out

I would have thought the statement in the DMG, already quoted above (including by you), that "the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration" is a very specific calling out of the need for drinkers of potions to concentrate!