Powergaming, who is on board?

Shadeydm said:
Speaking of error in logic the notion that not powergaming somehow equals "incompetent characters" seems quite egregious to me.

It's all a matter of how you define your terms. I started out by defining it as designing characters able to perform tasks effectively. Please notice that I also put it on its own axis... I in no way intend to suggest that concentrating on roleplaying makes your character inefective.

Mort said:
As long as the players are roughly equal in power level it doesn't matter how powerful they are, the DM can provide an appropriate challenge. For me it's much more fun to have a powerful PC challenged than a mediocre one because with the mediocre one it's not that I'm being challenged, it's that I'm limiting myself.

Extremely well said!
 

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I agree with the above that the two aren't mutually exclusive. Some players have an intuitive grasp of rules systems, and some don't remember which dice they need to roll from one game to the next. Their facility with the rules doesn't necessarily reflect on their ability to roleplay.

Personally I prefer games with deep characterisation and plenty of roleplaying opportunities. However I also enjoy learning rules sytems, and as my knowledge of the rules increases I think of ways to improve my character, or make clever uses of my skills and abilities. Am I a roleplayer or a powergamer?

In one campaign, I wrote several pieces of short fiction about my character, based around his background and his reactions to key campaign events. In other games I've had characters that weren't much more rounded than the protagonist of a video game. I've enjoyed them all - after one particularly intense, roleplay-heavy campaign, it was actually a relief to play something lighter afterwards. I only have so much energy to spend on pondering moral dilemmas and negotiating complex relationships. While it can be fun to explore these through roleplaying, it can also be draining - and gaming is meant to be escapism, after all. There's something to be said for just hitting things from time to time.

As a GM, I've had players who could roleplay and powergame, and others who've not been very good at either. As long as they all enjoyed themselves, and brought something positive to the group as a whole, I didn't really think it mattered much. Often the differing approaches complimented each other, and the art of GMing requires that you offer something to everyone throughout the course of a session.

I see all kinds of nonsense at the Character Optimisation boards at WotC - people dipping into classes here and there just to get a specific feat or ability. However I think the class-based d20 system encourages that in some ways, and my inner powergamer can understand temptation. Sure, some people tune their characters to make them as powerful as they can, but others just can't realise their vision of their character without shopping around for the right mix of abilities. I could argue that's roleplaying, not powergaming - having an idea for a character and crafting it from the materials (i.e.rules) available.
 

Well put on all cases (hence the fact I started the post).

the issue is when the numbers outshine the concept. and I will use the example I have in my groups.

The interview is simple since I always start a group at level1

Work: do you have income? income is important as I require to be bought and snacks and such to be contributed equally by all players.

Motation: do you drive? is it reliable and are you prompt. These facts just keep logicstics fine

Hygene: do you smell? Games are in my home and I will not have my house smell like someone's behind during and after they are there.

Character concept: Do you have one? Do you have a backstory? This is where I get the pure powergamers out (they have a concept that is built on class feats and bonuses rather than story or PC concept).

Hence, after interviewing over 25 applicants I came up with 8 gamers that will fit the bill over one year. This is the reason why I put forth this question and what WE as a communtiy are doing to keep some standards in our games (and what those standards are in general group to group).

This is why I LOVE all your input (as we are as diverse a sample as one could possibly ask for)

Props to all you who have answered and will answer!

The Public :cool:
 

ThePublic said:
Character concept: Do you have one? Do you have a backstory? This is where I get the pure powergamers out (they have a concept that is built on class feats and bonuses rather than story or PC concept).

Question -

What would your response be if/when the applicant answers "when he was 8, my character saw his parents and relatives bullied and eventually killed by the kings soldiers - since that time he has vowed to be the greatest swordfighter that ever lived, a childish dream turned into a grown man's obsession - he may not be there yet, but he'll get there."

Here is a perfectly cogent, playable character concept that practically demands a good build (read: powergamed build)?
 


Patlin said:
It's all a matter of how you define your terms. I started out by defining it as designing characters able to perform tasks effectively. Please notice that I also put it on its own axis... I in no way intend to suggest that concentrating on roleplaying makes your character inefective.

Perhaps then it is your definition of powergaming which is the root of our disagreement. To me powergaming is better defined as a person who chooses character abilities with the intention of building a character who routinely achieves results above the expected norm for that level. We are in agreement that powergaming and roleplaying can be quite seperate issues, however, I cannot accept that not powergaming equals incompetent characters.
 
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Sometimes my group uses a definition of roleplaying that is the opposite of powergaming:

Roleplaying is deliberately selecting an option or course of action for your character, either at the build stage or during play, which you know is suboptimal - ie will reduce your character's chances of 'winning' - for reasons to do with the character's personality.

Under this definition, there can be such a thing as too much roleplaying, roleplaying that causes the failure of the mission, for example.

The typical definition of roleplaying means any acting in-character, which could include optimal decisions.

There's a third, less useful imo, definition which means the activity of playing a roleplaying game, as in "I was roleplaying yesterday."
 

The main problem I have with powergaming is that every player that I've had that is a powergamer cares nothing for roleplaying. So I tend to not care about their PC much because the "character" is usually pretty boring to interact with. Maybe if a powergamer was also a great roleplayer, I might not even notice the tweaked out build...I'd be having a lot of fun seeing how this character deals with the NPCs other than in combat. But unfortunately the powergamed PCs are always the least interesting characters at my table.

From my experience of playing with powergamers, it also seems like they are usually metagamers. Since they focus so much on crunch during character creation, they also focus on crunch during gameplay. It can be frustrating when the PCs actions are done due to metagaming rather than because that's what he'd do in character.
 

I don't like people who powergame with no respect for the other players. See, I tend to play in groups that are comprised of both newbies and old hats. Those of us that have been playing for a while can generally manipulate the system until our PCs are immensely more powerful than the PCs of the newbies, if we wish to do so. Doing this, however, tends to make the newbies feel like they aren't useful to the group, so we discourage this. When there is an experience gap between the players, then powergaming can make the game significantly less fun for those who are not adept at it.
 

Oryan77 said:
The main problem I have with powergaming is that every player that I've had that is a powergamer cares nothing for roleplaying.

The main problem I have with threads that pick on powergaming is that every poster that I've seen pick on powergaming cares nothing for making sweeping generalizations. :D
 

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