Pricing a ring of gravestrike

[Mistwell]

Although it is true that flanks cannot always be done, this is DND we are talking about.

Greater Invisibility, Hide in Plain Sight, etc. are effects that most Rogues eventually get one way or another. And even flanking can typically be achieved nearly every round of combat. That changes this from something that can be used some of the time against undead to most of the time against undead.

Granted, the cost should also be based on how often undead show up in a campaign. If often, then that cost basis is not too high. If rare, then some lesser cost basis makes more sense.


Effectively, the WotC concept of "I am IMMUNE to this" ... "No you are not" is extremely annoying.

Immunity should mean immunity, not immunity until another splat book comes out.

Name me one other immunity that ever stayed intact? This is a house rule magic item. The guy is asking for reasonable pricing for it. Overpricing it because you are upset about the greater issue of immunities not really being immunities isn't very fair to the OP. He deserves a fair estimate of the price along with the perceived problems, so his DM can make an informed decision.

Gravestrike isn't all that powerful, even as a constant effect. The damage rogues do with sneak attack is around the damage done by a fighter type, and it has major flaws well beyond what the fighter has in doing that damage even with gravestrike (such as all of the methods that allow one to sneak attack have a clear-cut counter even in the core rules, and most high level NPCs have the counter readily available most of the time). Folks claiming it's an epic item just because it's powerful seem to be ignoring how powerful it is relative to the rest of the game.

 

[Jeremy]

I think Grave Strike is a damn stupid spell.

Rowport had it right: rogues can spend their time Aiding Another (excellent option) or healing, flanking, exploring. Heck, even harrying the Big Bad Lich so he can't get any spells off would be a good idea.

If you're going to allow a ring of grave strike, then I would make it intelligent so that it can activate the spell itself. And give it a massive ego score and an annoying special purpose. Make the PC suffer for the ability.

Yes. All high level rogues should spend their turns giving one of their allies +1 to hit. Or at least made to suffer for having an ability that might put them on par with a spellcaster.

If someone wants to spend money on this, or take a class or feat that allows something similar, let them. Just because undead or constructs lack organs doesn't mean they lack weak points or structural lynchpins. It's personal, it's short duration, it should have a huge price tag. But it shouldn't be completely out of reach or banned outright or belittled. Just simply another choice, you could spend the money on better weapons, more dexterity, or any number of other things that would make you more effective in other ways, just as you should be able to spend money or feats or class levels on being more effective against undead.

At least that's my opinion. Making PC's special or giving them fun ways to use their skills so they have something meaningful to do is something that should be encouraged, not obstructed I think.

 

[moritheil]

Agreed. The ability for a Rogue to be useful in fights with undead is incredibly overpowered. Just imagine all the players having fun in multiple situations. Unbelievable. Only a powergamer would come up with this.

Come on, Crothian, who does this hurt that we have to ratchet up the cost. Honestly.

The undead? You know, the guys who are supposed to scare rogues?

Jeremy - I think the point they are making is not that it is supposed to be impossible for the rogue to find any way to sneak attack undead, just that he should be giving up more to do so (note that a number of people pointed out that the only normal way to get this is to multiclass as a cleric.)

 

[Wolfwood2]

I would have it work the same as a Ring of Invisibility.

That is, you have to spend a standard action to activate the ring. Then on your next attack or full attack, you get the benefits of the Gravestrike spell. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Only getting your attacks in every other combat round is a big enough sacrifice to allow it unlimited uses, I'd say.

I'd also add some kind of interesting effect so the ring isn't exactly duplicating the spell. Not sure what.

 

[KarinsDad]

Name me one other immunity that ever stayed intact? This is a house rule magic item. The guy is asking for reasonable pricing for it. Overpricing it because you are upset about the greater issue of immunities not really being immunities isn't very fair to the OP. He deserves a fair estimate of the price along with the perceived problems, so his DM can make an informed decision.

If you think I am overpricing it, fine.

I am not upset. I am not trying to be unfair to the OP. Please stop discussing my motivations or my states of mind. That is not allowed here.

And since this is a house rule, how come this isn't in the house rules forum?

Gravestrike isn't all that powerful, even as a constant effect. The damage rogues do with sneak attack is around the damage done by a fighter type, and it has major flaws well beyond what the fighter has in doing that damage even with gravestrike (such as all of the methods that allow one to sneak attack have a clear-cut counter even in the core rules, and most high level NPCs have the counter readily available most of the time). Folks claiming it's an epic item just because it's powerful seem to be ignoring how powerful it is relative to the rest of the game.

At high level, a Rogue could have the same magic as a Fighter, could also have Power Attack, has BAB 5 less and less Strength. So, 3D6 (5D6 with two handed weapons) of the 10D6 Sneak Attack damage could account for the difference in Strength and BAB (via Power Attack) and Weapon Specialization, and the Rogue still does 7D6 (5D6 with THW) more damage.

So, the Fighter does 30 points of damage per attack and the Rogue does 55 (40 vs. 60 with two handed weapons).

Going from doing 20 points per attack to 55 points per attack is a real significant jump in power. It's almost like getting 3 rounds of actions in per round instead of 1 against a creature that the Rogue class is supposed to be weak against.

 

[helium3]

Would this be a good time to ask questions about a Ring of True Strike?

 

[Bad Paper]

Yes. All high level rogues should spend their turns giving one of their allies +1 to hit.

+1? A flanking rogue giving his fighter buddy Aid Another is giving him +4 to hit. Translated into a fighter's two-handed power-attack damage, that's another +8 damage, for simply standing in the right place and hitting AC 10. And it's free!

 

[KarinsDad]

+1? A flanking rogue giving his fighter buddy Aid Another is giving him +4 to hit. Translated into a fighter's two-handed power-attack damage, that's another +8 damage, for simply standing in the right place and hitting AC 10. And it's free!

+8 damage per successful attack (+4 with a single handed weapon and Power Attack) and the Rogue can do this at the same time as using Combat Expertise or Improved Combat Expertise. It's not that difficult to put +8 into the Aid Another and the rest into ICE. It works 95% of the time (the Rogue needs to roll a 2 on the to hit).

So at high level, this can often equate to 24 to 40 (or more) damage (most high level Fighters minimally have 4 attacks plus Haste) against a single undead foe while at the same time, the Rogue has a fairly high AC. Against Undead, this can be a great tactic.

It is more effective if the Fighter can get a full round attack in and the Undead is either corporeal or if incorporeal, the Fighter has a Ghost Touch weapon.

 

[brehobit]

+8 damage per successful attack (+4 with a single handed weapon and Power Attack) and the Rogue can do this at the same time as using Combat Expertise or Improved Combat Expertise. It's not that difficult to put +8 into the Aid Another and the rest into ICE. It works 95% of the time (the Rogue needs to roll a 2 on the to hit).

Interesting, I never realized aid another counted as an attack option. Are you allowed to use in the middle of a full attack? So take that -10 swing and use it to add +2 to your buddy?

I still argue that the gravestrike as a +1 or +2 weapon bonus is just fine. Otherwise, I'd just take a holy undead bane weapon (+2d6 vs evil, +4d6+2 vs undead, +2 attack vs undead, don't need to flank or whatever) It's +3 but darn helpful against ANY evil....

Mark

 

[iceifur]

Personally, I'd just take the ghost strike ability that I mentioned earlier, tack an additional +1 to its cost (for a total of +3), and make it useable against all undead (rather than just incorporeal undead).

*shrug*

To tell the truth, I really don't see what all the hubbub is about.