D&D 5E Proficiencies don't make the class. Do they?

[MoonSong]

Kamikaze covered my responses to this quite nicely, so I'll just say that I agree with what was said there. I also think that it's...humorous, to say that physical scores have no effect on RP while mental scores dramatically do. All stats affect RP--and at the same time, a character is not beholden to them either. You can totally make a character with crap-tastic Charisma who always tries to schmooze his way through things; they might be in deep denial about or simply oblivious to what others think of them, it's called being a blowhard. You can make a character with low Intelligence who strives to show off her wit and charm; that variably works out as a know-nothing who considers herself a know-it-all (like Shakespeare's Polonius) or a constant "malaproper" in TVTropes terms (like Juliet's nurse). And you can totally have a hyper-smart person who hates thinking, a strong or graceful person who is too lazy to make an effort, a charismatic misanthrope, etc. Stats define what you're good at doing, not what you like to do.

You know, one thing is to roleplay a fake and other to roleplay a genuine. You cannot roelplay a truly dumb wizard that is also somehow competent.

Four, actually. Two at 3rd level, another at 10th, another at 17th. Unless you meant three for the vast majority of the game and for most groups, since levels 15+ are uncommon; that I would totally agree with.

Yes, lets go with it. n_n

The School of Metamagic might progress very slowly with the metamagic, though. And they could even (potentially) be different kinds of metamagic. For example, casting two different concentration spells would be a unique and powerful feature. Further, since this is a subclass component rather than a basal component, the progression could be smaller and slower: perhaps half as many points in total, and not allowing them to be used to recover spell slots (since the Wizard already has a feature for that).

And it's not like the "free metamagic" is actually much different anyway. Sculpt Spells is actually a superior form of Careful Spell, since it outright *excludes* targets/locations rather than enabling particular targets to auto-succeed saving throws. The fact that some schools already get abilities that are metamagic-like, but better AND without resource cost doesn't really persuade me that a "School of Metamagic" is such a problem.

Making a class mechanically irrelevant and overshadowing all other wizard schools is a big deal in my book. Wizards just don't need that much extra versatility, Sculpt spell is good and free, but it cannot be used with say, cloudkill. And it isn't about blasting when I say it would break, the blasting card is used so often to justify underpowering sorcerers. I'm thinking on utility and crazy insane mixtures that aren't that easy to do with a sorcerer. Wizards are really that good,

I mean, just a couple months back, I'd bet most people would have been pretty skeptical of giving the Sorcerer not only extra spells known, when that is specifically one of the class's limitations, but further being able to *select* those spells via a bloody Cleric domain. Yet the designers were completely comfortable doing that. They--and you--don't seem to think that transferring domains, which is a major part of the Cleric, is a huge abrogation of the Cleric class. Why should transferring metamagic, which is apparently a major part of the Sorcerer, be that much different?

Yes the domains are a big part of the cleric, but all the Favored Soul gets are the spell domains, nothing else, no extra powers, no channel divinity, no bonus features from it. Don't compare a spell package from a subclass with the backbone of other class.

Given how many people are specifically harping the limited number of spells known to the Sorcerer, and the nearly immediate fan reaction that the new Sorcerer origins are a major power boost specifically because they get free spells known, I'm not so sure I agree with you here. And then the new ones even get straight-up improvements on what the original origins got (e.g. the Storm Sorc's flight feature is pretty much out-and-out better than the Dragon Sorc's, what with the party buff element).

The new sorcerer subclasses are really balanced with the other two, they only overshadow the others because they aren't that flattering and blasting is boring. Wild magic feels more like an homage to the 2e's wild mage, and is very niche, and dragon magic is just too focused in blasting and not utility. FS and Storm are less blasty.
Those extra spells aren't raw power, they come at the expense of blasting power. -And this is good, because they make non-blasting viable- . Storm sorcerers get their wings at a later level, and no riders on blasting, their damage booster is more niche and doesn't apply to area attacks, they are also squishier than dragon sorcerers and with worse ac. And you say the so few spells known are a class limitation, well that limitation is the price for metamagic, and the wizard didn't pay for it. -And they don't need it, they have tons of spells at a time, they can change them if they don't work, can turn gold into more spells, they can cast niche spells with no slots, their slot recovery doesn't consume resources, and they get at-will magic at higher levels.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

You know, one thing is to roleplay a fake and other to roleplay a genuine. You cannot roelplay a truly dumb wizard that is also somehow competent.

I don't recall anyone suggesting that you could?

Making a class mechanically irrelevant and overshadowing all other wizard schools is a big deal in my book.

Well, if your initial assumption is "sharing mechanic X automatically overshadows class Y" then *nothing* we suggest will ever possibly pass muster. Your assumptions inherently prevent any possibility of discussion. My entire point has been that I think there ARE ways to have metamagic appear in classes other than the Sorcerer, without specifically overshadowing it. What leads you to believe that mechanic-sharing is a guaranteed, unmitigated path to making classes completely obsolete?

Yes the domains are a big part of the cleric, but all the Favored Soul gets are the spell domains, nothing else, no extra powers, no channel divinity, no bonus features from it. Don't compare a spell package from a subclass with the backbone of other class.

Are sorcery points really so important that they're comparable to domain features AND extra powers (which is what I thought bloodline features were comparable to)? If so, it starts to sound like the Sorcerer may be badly designed; that is, the whole of its being exists in a single mechanic and *nothing else whatsoever,* and I feel like that's an unwise design move. If people are also so easily missing the impact that the points have...when they are LITERALLY *THE* point of the class, by your argument...tells me that either the description of the class, or its actual design, has some kind of flaw that needs to be addressed.

Otherwise, I don't actually think it's *THAT* big a difference to compare getting a bunch of free, cross-class spells known, specifically opposing one of the frequently-mentioned limitations of the Sorcerer class (more spells cast, far narrower selection), and what domains grant. Especially because "Favored Soul + Domain X" seems precisely identical to the kind of mechanical package a Cleric gets from choosing a domain...

The new sorcerer subclasses are really balanced with the other two, they only overshadow the others because they aren't that flattering and blasting is boring.

I disagree. And if blasting is boring, the blasters should receive stuff that isn't boring (but isn't necessarily powerful, either) to compensate. Either way, your statement here reads to me like "they aren't overshadowing, they're just overshadowing." The new classes are more interesting, more flattering, and *at least* equally competent. Sounds overshadow-y to me, unless we're using the term to mean different things?

Those extra spells aren't raw power, they come at the expense of blasting power. -And this is good, because they make non-blasting viable- .

I find that hard to believe, when several of those spells (depending on domain, at least) are what *make* a Cleric blasty in the first place. Besides, you say it's "at the expense of blasting power," but you're just flat wrong there--or you're making an implication that is wrong. The blasting power doesn't decrease. The Favored Soul learns those domain spells *in addition to* their normal allotment of Sorcerer spells, and since Sorcerers never prepare spells at all (spells known ARE spells prepared, more or less) that's a massive INCREASE in their *potential* ability to do things. The only way it could be considered "at the expense of blasting power" is if you're saying that casting a heal spell when you need one is a power-decrease over not casting one when you need it. Which I mean, sure, the non-FS is blasting M times per day, and the FS is blasting N less times, but "I'm a blaster who can also spontaneously heal whenever it would be useful" sounds like a pretty inarguable step UP, because N *could* be zero (potentially no loss), and if it weren't zero, there were good reasons to make it not zero!

And try this one on for size: The FS has twice as many spells known at 1st level, compared to a regular Sorcerer. They continue to have twice as many (at every odd level) through 9th, knowing 20 spells instead of 10. Since the Sorcerer only learns 15 spells total, this means even at max level, the Favored Soul knows (25-15) = 10/15 = 2/3 more spells than the standard Sorcerer does--yet the very article that introduced the FS says, "Like bards, sorcerers are have a limitation on the number of spells they can choose from, which is a major restriction on the class." Even for the Life domain, the only one I have access to right now as I am moving and cannot check the PHB, two of them are pretty blasty (Spiritual Weapon and Guardian of Faith), which should help mitigate the terrible burden of having to count Bless and (metamagic-able!) Cure Wounds among your spells known. Throw in something like Light or War and it becomes hard to even see how the FS is losing "raw blasting power" (if you allow "blasting" to include divinely-mojo'd melee attacks, which I am).

 

[MoonSong]

I don't recall anyone suggesting that you could?

Well, I said it was a big deal, and that you couldn't be truly dumb as a wizard, then you tell me I can fake it, but faking it is a cop out and not the real deal.

Well, if your initial assumption is "sharing mechanic X automatically overshadows class Y" then *nothing* we suggest will ever possibly pass muster. Your assumptions inherently prevent any possibility of discussion. My entire point has been that I think there ARE ways to have metamagic appear in classes other than the Sorcerer, without specifically overshadowing it. What leads you to believe that mechanic-sharing is a guaranteed, unmitigated path to making classes completely obsolete?

Check this part of something you wrote yourself:

"Like bards, sorcerers are have a limitation on the number of spells they can choose from, which is a major restriction on the class."

Guess what, those restrictions are the price for having metamagic, and the class that is about metamagic has only so little of it, giving metamagic to a class that didn't pay the price will make it overpowered, even in small doses. Letting wizards have the sorcerer's pretty toy already makes sorcerers feel less loved, take away the last toy they have and you make them obsolete, sorcerers have metamagic because they don't have all those other toys wizards have.

Are sorcery points really so important that they're comparable to domain features AND extra powers (which is what I thought bloodline features were comparable to)? If so, it starts to sound like the Sorcerer may be badly designed; that is, the whole of its being exists in a single mechanic and *nothing else whatsoever,* and I feel like that's an unwise design move. If people are also so easily missing the impact that the points have...when they are LITERALLY *THE* point of the class, by your argument...tells me that either the description of the class, or its actual design, has some kind of flaw that needs to be addressed.

The point of the class is being a dumb spellcaster, and not having to prepare spells, but the edition limits on magic -made by thinking of the wizard- don't leave it too much space to breath, and the class got so little love druing the open playtest, it has issues,

Otherwise, I don't actually think it's *THAT* big a difference to compare getting a bunch of free, cross-class spells known, specifically opposing one of the frequently-mentioned limitations of the Sorcerer class (more spells cast, far narrower selection), and what domains grant. Especially because "Favored Soul + Domain X" seems precisely identical to the kind of mechanical package a Cleric gets from choosing a domain...

clerics also get a lot of extra goodies from domain on top of the extra spells, FS doesn't give you martial weapons, heavy armor, turn undead, healing boosts...

I disagree. And if blasting is boring, the blasters should receive stuff that isn't boring (but isn't necessarily powerful, either) to compensate. Either way, your statement here reads to me like "they aren't overshadowing, they're just overshadowing." The new classes are more interesting, more flattering, and *at least* equally competent. Sounds overshadow-y to me, unless we're using the term to mean different things?

Well kinda, yes, for me they overshadow the old subclasses, but the old subclasses weren't made for me, why make the blasty subclass less blasty so it still don't appeal to me but appeal less to players who like to blast? -the mere act of blasting is what bores me, no blasty subclass will ever make me happy- given the sorcerer balance it is either blast like crazy or have utility. I prefer to have utility or not having incentives to blast, of course the new subclasses are the ones to go for me, they were made more for me than the others.

I find that hard to believe, when several of those spells (depending on domain, at least) are what *make* a Cleric blasty in the first place. Besides, you say it's "at the expense of blasting power," but you're just flat wrong there--or you're making an implication that is wrong. The blasting power doesn't decrease. The Favored Soul learns those domain spells *in addition to* their normal allotment of Sorcerer spells, and since Sorcerers never prepare spells at all (spells known ARE spells prepared, more or less) that's a massive INCREASE in their *potential* ability to do things. The only way it could be considered "at the expense of blasting power" is if you're saying that casting a heal spell when you need one is a power-decrease over not casting one when you need it. Which I mean, sure, the non-FS is blasting M times per day, and the FS is blasting N less times, but "I'm a blaster who can also spontaneously heal whenever it would be useful" sounds like a pretty inarguable step UP, because N *could* be zero (potentially no loss), and if it weren't zero, there were good reasons to make it not zero!

You are forgetting blasting riders. These are a huge deal, it isn't just number of times you blast, it is also how hard you blast every time. Favored soul has none of them. Yes favored soul has the chance to heal and blast, but if the default package gives you no reasons to privilege blasts over no blasting, and it gives you tools to be good in combat so you can devote more of your spells to non-combat. You can be a blaster and a healer, but you cannot be good at both at the same time.

And try this one on for size: The FS has twice as many spells known at 1st level, compared to a regular Sorcerer. They continue to have twice as many (at every odd level) through 9th, knowing 20 spells instead of 10. Since the Sorcerer only learns 15 spells total, this means even at max level, the Favored Soul knows (25-15) = 10/15 = 2/3 more spells than the standard Sorcerer does--yet the very article that introduced the FS says, "Like bards, sorcerers are have a limitation on the number of spells they can choose from, which is a major restriction on the class." Even for the Life domain, the only one I have access to right now as I am moving and cannot check the PHB, two of them are pretty blasty (Spiritual Weapon and Guardian of Faith), which should help mitigate the terrible burden of having to count Bless and (metamagic-able!) Cure Wounds among your spells known. Throw in something like Light or War and it becomes hard to even see how the FS is losing "raw blasting power" (if you allow "blasting" to include divinely-mojo'd melee attacks, which I am).

No, I don't count it as blasting, if you use a weapon it isn't blasting. And like I said, blasting bonuses are a huge deal. And burdens are relative, to me having combat spells are a huge burden.

 

[Hussar]

Do you mean that it's a burden if you have to take blast spells or a burden of the option exists at all?

 

[MoonSong]

Do you mean that it's a burden if you have to take blast spells or a burden of the option exists at all?

The burden is being forced to have to take blast spells, without the option not to. In this case the dragon sorcerer was unappealing because the class overall has little long term utility and weapons, and the blast bonuses it has kind of force you to pick blasting spells just to not be dead weight in combat and not waste the blast bonuses. Thankfully the favored soul has no blasting bonuses and some weapons to let you be a little more down to earth with how you fight, and having access to some more utility, it is the class for me.

 

[sla_dreamer]

I think you have some valid points and the real crux is coming up with the new mechanic. Trying to justify a new class without a new mechanic seems meaningless. But can that really be done on a forum like this? Do you want people who think it should be its own class to submit new mechanical ideas? It just seems like you've made up you mind that it should just be a sub-class. The reasons that people give you that it should be a class you say are superficial (and I don't entirely disagree with you either. Proficiencies alone aren't enough to make a new class. I think it should be its own class but am at a loss at how to make that happen. I think that the fact that they have qualities of a wizard, a cleric, a bard, and a rogue makes it hard to assign them to a single class)

What, in your mind, justifies the druid or the paladin as full classes? Why couldn't they have just been sub-classes as well? What unique qualities do they bring? Why couldn't they just have been expansions of the cleric or fighter? And while I don't want to get off the subject of Artificers, with the requirements that you (seem to) want to see as a justification for an Artificer class I look at those 2 classes and wonder why they were made full classes and not just sub-classes, if the requirements for making a new class are as stringent as you are making it appear. (to a certain extent a bard could've been a sub-class as well)

 

[EzekielRaiden]

What, in your mind, justifies the druid or the paladin as full classes? Why couldn't they have just been sub-classes as well? What unique qualities do they bring? Why couldn't they just have been expansions of the cleric or fighter?

I have my own answers--particularly for the Paladin class, which I make no bones about being my favorite. However, it's clear that you want @MoonSong(Kaiilurker)'s opinion specifically, so I'll hold off on sharing them.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But can that really be done on a forum like this? Do you want people who think it should be its own class to submit new mechanical ideas?

Yeah! I'm ambivalent on these things being full classes or not, but someone who could present a good key mechanic for the class could go a long way toward making me cool with the idea. There's been a few stabs at it, even, they've mostly just been underwhelming (any class that makes items might suffer from the "you're better off as an NPC" problem if the items aren't reliant on their creator being close at hand, for instance).

What, in your mind, justifies the druid or the paladin as full classes? Why couldn't they have just been sub-classes as well?

They could have been, but a choice was made that they wouldn't be, and that is reflected in unique mechanics for each class. The druid has wild shape as their big mechanic, and a paladin's big distinguishing factor is divine smite (though they get a host of supporting factors as well). No nature priest can turn into an animal. No cleric can funnel their spells into raw attack damage. No fighter can do that either. Similarly, a druid can't channel divinity the way a cleric can, and a fighter has action surge, which is more versatile than any paladin smite.

What does an artificer get that is equivalent to any of those things? The 3e and 4e artificers didn't have anything that unique, but that's not a barrier (the 3e and 4e sorcerers didn't either - now they have sorcery points), it's just a hurdle to overcome. Since I'm not a big "ARTIFICERS MUST BE A CLASS" purist, I'd like to hear from those who are how they'd like to do this.

 

[MoonSong]

Yeah! I'm ambivalent on these things being full classes or not, but someone who could present a good key mechanic for the class could go a long way toward making me cool with the idea. There's been a few stabs at it, even, they've mostly just been underwhelming (any class that makes items might suffer from the "you're better off as an NPC" problem if the items aren't reliant on their creator being close at hand, for instance).

But if you need us to provide this killer mechanic, at least put the same effort. An artificer subclass that :

Gives the right proficiencies at first level (armor and weapons)
It's about magic items that feel like items
Doesn't need strong refluffing
Fits the right aesthetics of the artificer
Doesn't require a specific race/background.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But if you need us to provide this killer mechanic, at least put the same effort. An artificer subclass that :

Gives the right proficiencies at first level (armor and weapons)
It's about magic items that feel like items
Doesn't need strong refluffing
Fits the right aesthetics of the artificer
Doesn't require a specific race/background.

A class does need a strong central mechanic to be worth its price.

A subclass, however, does not need these things to be representative.

I might as well argue that the assassin rogue isn't a real assassin because it can't use a disguise kit at 1st level and because I need to refluff sneak attack into an assassination surprise stab and anyway thieves and assassins have completely different aesthetics, one dresses in black, one dresses in cargo pants I MEAN COME ON.