protection from True Seeing?

[Salthorae]

I thought we just established True Seeing is stopped by Nondetection.

Nondetection stops divination magic used against the target, True Seeing is a divination, ergo Nondetection stops True Seeing.

Well, not exactly. At best per the text you yourself quoted above, Nondetection allows an opposed Caster Level check to see if the Divination's caster can penetrate the Nondetection or not...

If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level.

 

[blargney the second]

Yup - like I said, although it's not proof positive, nondetection gives you a fighting chance against true seeing. The 15+caster level DC is at least a decent one!

 

[Bagpuss]

My point was it is not indefensible. Both nondetection and mundane disguise work against it fine.

 

[Salthorae]

Yup - like I said, although it's not proof positive, nondetection gives you a fighting chance against true seeing. The 15+caster level DC is at least a decent one!

Assuming your shapechanged creature has spellcasting abilities at a decent level (Rakshasa?) that is...

My point was it is not indefensible. Both nondetection and mundane disguise work against it fine.

True!

 

[SMDVogrin]

No, Nondetection would not work vs True Seeing, at least not in my game.

"If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection."

Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Locate Object, Scrying, Detect Evil, etc, etc, all target YOU, thus a Nondetection spell on you would affect them.

True Seeing targets THE PERSON LOOKING FOR YOU, thus a Nondetection spell on you has no effect. The divination is not being attempted against you, it's being attempted on them.

 

[Salthorae]

Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Locate Object, Scrying, Detect Evil, etc, etc, all target YOU, thus a Nondetection spell on you would affect them.

True Seeing targets THE PERSON LOOKING FOR YOU, thus a Nondetection spell on you has no effect. The divination is not being attempted against you, it's being attempted on them.

Hmm, I feel like we're about to get into a semantical debate on the nature of magic and spell interaction, but...

I would say that, yes the True Seeing is cast as a Range:Touch spell, but by your reasoning, the Detect Evil spell that emanates from the caster (and has an area effect, not "Target YOU" as you said) also isn't effected by Nondetection, which is pretty much the main point of Nondetection (evil characters mixing with Paladins) in my book.

I would say that yes True Seeing is cast on the Creature Touched and not targeted at the Nondetected creature, but there is still an interaction between the True seeing and the Nondetection spell (one trying to cloak the true nature and one trying to divine/reveal it) so the Caster Level check would still happen IMHO...

 

[Victim]

The problem is that it otherwise doesn't make sense in the campaign world. The premise is that of a shapechanged/polymorphed/alternate-formed inhuman monster in a very public position of long-term influence. (Any number of creatures could fill that role.) Assuming that such a premise isn't impossible in D&D, how else does such a character hobnobbing with high-level royal advisers, court wizards, high priests, and the like avoid eventual discovery? If there's another way out of it, I'd like to know.

Because True Seeing is a 5th level spell that lasts minutes and costs money to cast? Chances are good that most people aren't going to use it in front of you. It's not like it's the only way to burn their disguise either - shapechanging magic only grants a +10 bonus to disguise so perceptive characters can detect those creatures through entirely mundane means. Just sprinkling with holy water can catch quite a few shapechanged creatures as well. Avoiding suspicion is the best way not to get caught. And having a mundane body double to trot out when you suspect pesky attempts to reveal your true nature helps quite a bit. Switch, get scanned with True Sight, get cleared, switch back. Or the creature coopts those that could detect it.

I tend to think that most illusions and transmutations would be outside the protections of mind blank and non detection. Your polymorph or your invisibility is not you - they can be detected (before we start talking about abjurations) and targeted for dispel separately. So Mind Blanked creature viewed under True Sight might cover up its alignment (information actually about the protected creature) but not its invisible location. Undetectable invisible stuff seems problematic to say the least.

 

[blargney the second]

Bingo, Salthorae. If nondetection works against detect evil, then it would work against true seeing.

 

[Salthorae]

Because True Seeing is a 5th level spell that lasts minutes and costs money to cast? Chances are good that most people aren't going to use it in front of you. It's not like it's the only way to burn their disguise either - shapechanging magic only grants a +10 bonus to disguise so perceptive characters can detect those creatures through entirely mundane means.

This is one of my biggest gripes about magic in the D&D games I've always played in, no one (DM's included) making use/keeping track of Spell Components. I know that it is book keeping, but hey 250gp to cast True Seeing each time? How many people actually follow those rules? If the PC's in this instance are running a Con, and their is actually a system in place keeping track of Material Components, then the person being con'd might not want to waste his 250gp just to see through it. Heck, even if he uses it you've conned him out of 250gp, he just didn't give it to YOU!

Plus it would make the Epic Feat: Ignore Material Components actually useful!

 

[Victim]

This is one of my biggest gripes about magic in the D&D games I've always played in, no one (DM's included) making use/keeping track of Spell Components. I know that it is book keeping, but hey 250gp to cast True Seeing each time? How many people actually follow those rules? If the PC's in this instance are running a Con, and their is actually a system in place keeping track of Material Components, then the person being con'd might not want to waste his 250gp just to see through it. Heck, even if he uses it you've conned him out of 250gp, he just didn't give it to YOU!

Plus it would make the Epic Feat: Ignore Material Components actually useful!

Even if you ignore the tracking issue of components and just mark off GP.