Psion Powers Known

[Buddha the DM]

What was the rationale behind limiting non-epic psions to a maximum of 36 powers known?

 

[Rystil Arden]

What was the rationale behind limiting non-epic psions to a maximum of 36 powers known?

The same as the rationale behind limiting sorcerer powers known: casting flexibility at the expense of a wide and interchangable spell list. But with the ability to augment powers, 36 powers known is actually more than sufficient, even compared to the sorcerer.

 

[Buddha the DM]

How can you compare the Psion's 36 to the Sorcerer's 43?

 

[Chorn]

I don't see anything wrong with it. It compares favorably to the number of spells a sorcerer can know. Sorcerers end up with 34 spells known plus 9 cantrips. With the way psions select powers known they end up with 4 powers known per level at the lower levels tapering off to 3 per level at the upper levels assuming the psion selects the highest level power available. However, once they cap out with 9th level picks they get any 6 powers of 9th level or lower while sorcerers only ever get 3 spells known from levels 6 through 9.

One more thing that must be considered is the difference in how spells and powers scale. A fireball's damage automatically scales for free while a psion's energy ball requires augmentation. Eventually the fireball will cap out while augmentation has no inherent cap so the sorcerer will want to switch to a higher level spell for blasting as he reaches higher levels. Then you have spells and powers such as Charm Person and its psionic counterpart Psionic Charm. Charm Monster must be used instead of Charm Person against an aberration, but again the psion can simply spend more points to augment his power to affect aberrations. So while the sorcerer gets free scaling for effects such as damage, he might still need to use up another precious spell known due to damage caps or ineffective spells whereas the psion is more flexible with the powers he has at his disposal.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Because the first level power Astral Construct can be augmented to act as a 9th level summoning power, but Summon Monster I can't. This is true for about half of the available powers, which means that while a sorcerer's list is bottom-heavy with more low-level spells than high, the psion's list grows with him.

 

[Jack Simth]

And, thanks to that wonderful Psychic Chirurgery, you can hire other manifesters to teach you powers:

Transfer Knowledge: If desired, you can use this power to directly transfer knowledge of a power you know to another psionic character. You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest, even if the power is not normally on the character’s power list. Knowledge of powers gained through psychic chirurgery does not count toward the maximum number of powers a character can know per level.

XP Cost: Each time you use psychic chirurgery to implant knowledge of a power in another creature, you pay an XP cost equal to 1,000 x the level of the power implanted. If you and the subject are both willing to do so, you can split this cost evenly.

Although it is rather expensive to hire the manifester - 5 gp per exp (assuming you split it) requires 2,500 gp and 500 exp per level of the power bought, plus manifester Level * 90 gp for Psychic Chirurgery (Telepath-9), probably plus the expense for the power you are learning.... and the cost for the Psychic Chirurgery alone for a level-1 power learned will put it over the 3,000 gp cap, so it won't be widely available. Still though, fun power. Hmm.... does "transfer" in this case mean that the psychic Chirurgon lose the power? If so, not so cool a power to have.

 

[Jack Simth]

Although there are a few exceptions to the point about Psi powers being more flexible than spells - Telekenisis (a fifth level spell) is replaced by three separate powers: Telekenetic Force (3rd), Telekenetic Manuever (4th), and Telekenetic Thrust (3rd). Likewise, the various Shadow spells ((Greater) Shadow Evocation, (Greater) Shadow Conjouration, and Shades) duplicate fairly large swaths of spells.

For the elemental flexibility, a sorceror could take Archmage, which has that nifty Mastery of Elements, but can't take it until 14 or 15th level.

 

[Thanee]

How can you compare the Psion's 36 to the Sorcerer's 43?

If you make a reasonable comparison, you'll see, that a Psion knows much more than a Sorcerer by then, effectively.

Sure, simply adding up all the spells/powers will lead to those numbers, but they have very little meaning. Now take a look at this comparison:

Spell/Power Level --- Sorcerer --- Psion

0th --- 9 --- 1 (one 1st level power spent on Detect Psionics)
1st --- 5 --- 4
2nd --- 5 --- 4+
3rd --- 4 --- 4+
4th --- 4 --- 4++
5th --- 4 --- 4++
6th --- 3 --- 3+++
7th --- 3 --- 3+++
8th --- 3 --- 3++++
9th --- 3 --- 6++++

So, the Sorcerer has (ignoring augmentation) eight additional 0th level, one additional 1st level and one additional 2nd level spell, while the Psion has three additional 9th level powers. That alone is already an advantage for the Psion, since the higher levels are worth far more than the lower levels!

Now, if we include augmentation (the "+" behind the numbers), there are plenty powers, which via augmention can be turned into greater versions of themselves (i.e. Astral Construct, all Energy powers, or Psionic Suggestion). These must all be considered as seperate "spells known" in such a comparison, increasing the numbers drastically in the higher levels.

These are maximum level choices for the Psion, in some occasions it might be necessary to choose a lower level power instead of a higher one (especially with all those 9th level picks), but that won't make a big difference, it'll only be very few such choices for sure.

Of course, however, one shall not forget, that the Sorcerer does have a better selection and the Psion is more limited by the discipline lists, but comparing spells known to powers known only, the Psion easily wins out by factor ~2.

Anyways, that's how the 36 compare to the 43 - the 36 is worth up to twice as much.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Likewise, the various Shadow spells ((Greater) Shadow Evocation, (Greater) Shadow Conjouration, and Shades) duplicate fairly large swaths of spells.

Those are of a lower level, however, and with an added disadvantage (Will save, percentage reduction), so there is a price paid for the flexibility.

Still good spells, but compareable with other spells of their level, not more, or at least not much more. The powers often are actually more than a single spell of the same level.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Jack Simth]

Those are of a lower level, however, and with an added disadvantage (Will save, percentage reduction), so there is a price paid for the flexibility.

Still good spells, but compareable with other spells of their level, not more, or at least not much more.

No lo contendre - when making that post, I wasn't referencing power at all; just flexibility. However, they do have an additional (admittedly small) benefit: the save for the duplicated power is the level of the emulating power, not the emulated (e.g., when Shades duplicates Trap the Soul, the save on Trap the Soul is for a 9th level spell, not an 8th).

The powers often are actually more than a single spell of the same level.

Bye
Thanee

In some ways they are, in some ways they are not - spells tend to scale automatically (up to a point) with level, taking the same level spell slot (e.g., Sor/Wiz 3 Fireball is always a level 3 spell, but does it's (Caster Level)d6 damage up to level 10 without taking up a higher level slot) while a Psion manifesting the Keneticist 4 energy ball (very comperable; biggest description difference is the selectable energy type and the scaling) can scale it up to the Psion's Manifester level ... but it's PP cost is equivalent to a "spell slot" of the highest the Psion has available when the Psion does so - a psion 10 that manifests a 10d6 Energy Ball effectively consumes the equivalent of a Sorceror's 5th level spell slot, while that Sorceror's 10d6 Fireball still only uses up one of his 3rd level slots. Granted, the Sorceror's Fireball isn't going to improve beyond that, while the Psion's Energy Ball will, but it is something to keep in mind. Also, all those nifty infinitely scaleable lower-level Psion powers? They are stopped - dead - by Globe of Invulnerability, if not it's Lesser brother.

Even more fun, if you map out a psion's power points to equivalent spell levels, you might find something interesting - a Psion's Power Point progression matches more closely to a wizard's spells-per-day than it does to a Sorceror's:
Wizard (10, base, no specialization) has 4(0th), 4(1st), 4(2nd), 3(3rd), 3(4th), 2(5th)
Sorceror (10, base) has 6(0th), 6(1st), 6(2nd), 6(3rd), 5(4th), 3(5th)
Psion (10, base) has 88 base power points.
A wizard's spells per day work out to (not including Cantrips, which don't exist for Psions): 4 one point powers (1st) + 4 three point powers (2nd) + 3 five point powers (3rd) + 3 seven point powers (4th) + 2 nine point powers (5th) works out to 4+12+15+21+18=70 pp's (18 "left over" PP's for a Psion duplicating the progression)
While a Sorceror's spells per day work out to (not including Cantrips, which don't exist for Psions): 6(1) + 6(3) + 6(5) + 5(7) + 3(9) = 6+18+30+35+27= 116 pp's equivalent (a deficit of 28 PP's for a Psion trying to duplicate the progression)

The Psion deserves a little bit more flexibility for the power drop, just as the Wizard does (although to a lesser degree than the Wizard - unless you want to run the figures for a specialty wizard, or a Cleric; of course, the Wizard can FIND new spells through adventuring, while the Psion must learn new spells through either level advancement or EXP costing methods).