Psychic Warrior vs. Fighter

[Spatula]

Hey ForceUser, are you ever going to finish any of your old story hours? Or start up a new one?

Advantages the fighter has over the psychic warrior:
1) +1 hp / level.
2) Doesn't need a good wisdom. A good wisdom helps, of course, but cloaks of resistance are cheap, and a fighter gets so many feats that taking Iron Will is not a big deal.
3) Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization. Always active, all the time.
4) Two attacks per round, two levels before the psywar gets them.
5) Three attacks per round, four levels before the psywar gets them.
6) Four attacks per round, an infinite number of levels before the psywar gets them.
7) A good attack bonus that is always active, all the time.

That said, I think the psywar starts to take off once it can afford to start quickening powers (level 7 at the earliest). Although doing so prevents the psywar from using its psionic feats to enhance its combat damage.

 

[Scion]

But then, they arent the best fighters. Psychic warriors can out do them, given a bit of time. Barbarians can outdamage all over. Rangers outdo where they try to.

Fighters tend to be the worst fighters among the fighter types.

If the psychic warrior comes out around even with the fighter, then they both need a boost.

Anyone care to make a fighter that is actually worth taking? People have said it is out there, where is it? Oh, and anyone want to make a good psychic warrior build?

 

[ForceUser]

But then, they arent the best fighters. Psychic warriors can out do them, given a bit of time.

"Given a bit of time" is horse pucky. You don't have time. Fight now or die. Who's better? Also, dispel magic and anti-magic field will ruin a psychic warrior's day. Not so the fighter.

Barbarians can outdamage all over.

Debatable, but it's true that barbarians rank up there with fighters, and a case can be made that they edge fighters out in dealing damage, but certainly not in absorbing damage. Barbarians definitely out-melee psychic warriors - as do fighters.

Rangers outdo where they try to.

A ranger, when fighting his favored enemy, might outdamage a fighter verses that specific foe. Rangers fold like paper dolls in melee, though. Even psychic warriors can take a hit better when you factor in plate armor and vigor.

Fighters tend to be the worst fighters among the fighter types.

If the psychic warrior comes out around even with the fighter, then they both need a boost.

Anyone care to make a fighter that is actually worth taking? People have said it is out there, where is it? Oh, and anyone want to make a good psychic warrior build?

Earlier in this thread I showed you such a build. You must have missed it. Here's the melee combo that makes my fighter such a devastating meleer.

Power Attack
Weapon Focus (falchion)
Cleave
Improved Toughness
Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Great Cleave
Resounding Blow
Improved Critical (falchion)

At this point in the feat progression, this character is a 9th-level dwarven fighter. All feats are active all the time and cannot be dispelled, nor do they require burning power points. He had a +1 falchion, was +16/+11 to hit, dealt 2d4+10 damage without power attacking, and critted on a 15 or better, all the time. He had 87 hit points and +2 dwarven plate, and his typical AC hovered in the vicinity of 24. It is impossible to make a 9th-level psychic warrior this consistently destructive. By the very nature of a buffing combatant, his powers fluctuate with power reserves and opportunity. When initiative drops, the psychic warrior starts buffing. The fighter starts applying damage to his enemies.

This is a solid fighter build, and I can personally attest to the hordes of dead bad guys it generates. Sure, he's not as sulf-sufficient as a psychic warrior - in fact, as a fighter he's the least self-sufficient class in the game. So what? You want to cast buffs and nukes, that's what other classes are for. You want to make stuff dead, you play a fighter. Fighters get the job done.

That said, it's okay to find the fighter to be boring. Boring and ineffective aren't the same thing, however. I actually tend to agree with an earlier point you made, Scion; unlike other classes, fighters have no really cool high-level abilities. I can see how that might be boring for some people. On the other hand, monks have to wait forever to get the really cool monk powers, while fighters are consistent from 1st level. It's a tradeoff. With all due respect, i think you are confusing "sucking" with "boring." When you add up numbers, the idea of fighters being a terrible class doesn't jibe with the attack bonuses and damage modifiers they gain.

 

[ForceUser]

Hey ForceUser, are you ever going to finish any of your old story hours? Or start up a new one?

Nice to be remembered.

I would love to, but I'm currently a full-time college student, plus I game half a dozen times a month, plus I have a girlfriend who practically lives with me, plus I work. One day, hopefully, I'll be able to start another story hour. I want to be able to commit to it fully, however, and make it the best story I can write. I won't tackle another such project again until I can do so.

 

[ruleslawyer]

The problem with this build, ForceUser, is that you're allowing it to top out at 9th level, at which point the fighter is still actually competitive. Take that out to 12th level and see how well you do. The point isn't that the fighter can't compete at some levels, but that it won't do so well at higher levels. (Incidentally, your damage build isn't even particularly solid at those levels, compared with the more powerful AND more versatile barbarian builds available. Sub-9th level, a barbarian only needs Power Attack and Extend/Extra Rage to beat that fighter build on damage output AND damage soaking. Fighters are NOT good at those things, even at low levels; they're only competitive as tactical monkeys or archers.)

Also, the PsyWarr will still spank this build because it has superior tactical capability. Expansion plus strength buffs plus Up the Walls plus Speed of Thought mean that the psywarr can just take AoOs on the falchion fighter and trip him/follow-up attack until he stays down. Those are just a few of the needed buffs. And, they can be manifested as swift or free actions, so the issue of time is an illusion; there's no time needed for the psywarr to activate the most necessary buffs.

Finally, all-on, all-the-time is simply not an effective way to go in D&D after about 6th or 7th level. You need to last for three or four encounters; any class can do this at mid-level. Simply put, your entire party will want to stop and regroup after that point; the fact that you can keep swinging is irrelevant. Moreover, without the ability to self-heal, you're going to have to stop too.

 

[Scion]

There you are forceuser, check out ruleslawyers post.

The barb would have more hp, be able to do more damage, and have many more options besides.

It also looks like you are pulling feats from 3 different sources, further demonstrating my point.

 

[ForceUser]

The problem with this build, ForceUser, is that you're allowing it to top out at 9th level, at which point the fighter is still actually competitive. Take that out to 12th level and see how well you do. The point isn't that the fighter can't compete at some levels, but that it won't do so well at higher levels. (Incidentally, your damage build isn't even particularly solid at those levels, compared with the more powerful AND more versatile barbarian builds available. Sub-9th level, a barbarian only needs Power Attack and Extend/Extra Rage to beat that fighter build on damage output AND damage soaking. Fighters are NOT good at those things, even at low levels; they're only competitive as tactical monkeys or archers.)

Also, the PsyWarr will still spank this build because it has superior tactical capability. Expansion plus strength buffs plus Up the Walls plus Speed of Thought mean that the psywarr can just take AoOs on the falchion fighter and trip him/follow-up attack until he stays down. Those are just a few of the needed buffs. And, they can be manifested as swift or free actions, so the issue of time is an illusion; there's no time needed for the psywarr to activate the most necessary buffs.

Finally, all-on, all-the-time is simply not an effective way to go in D&D after about 6th or 7th level. You need to last for three or four encounters; any class can do this at mid-level. Simply put, your entire party will want to stop and regroup after that point; the fact that you can keep swinging is irrelevant. Moreover, without the ability to self-heal, you're going to have to stop too.

I see your point, but I don't agree that the fighter can't compete at higher levels. Take the same build shown here and double the level and now you've got a fighter trucking around with about 200 hit points, attacking with a +4 falchion for +32/+27/+22/+17 for around 2d4+20 sans power attack, and has all sorts of groovy high level magic items to aid in those areas known to be fighter weak spots (saving throws, mobility, etc.). I'm sorry, I'm just not buying your argument. That said, we'll see. I have yet to play a high-level fighter myself.

 

[ForceUser]

There you are forceuser, check out ruleslawyers post.

The barb would have more hp, be able to do more damage, and have many more options besides.

It also looks like you are pulling feats from 3 different sources, further demonstrating my point.

What's wrong with pulling feats from WotC sources? What books are we using for our debate, PHB and XPH only? Instead of parroting someone else, why not make your own arguments and back them up with numbers, so we can compare?

Maybe what we need to do is set up a melee smackdown thread so we can get to the bottom of this.

 

[xazil]

The fighter continues to get better and better options as the books expand with more feats to optimize himself in ways that most other characters can't. This is could be the designers way of evening the playing field over time. The style and tactical feats are mostly fighter only with the amount of requirements they tend to need precluding most others from getting more than one or two.

Comparing a Psywar to a Fighter with only PHB feats is hardly fair when you can have a fighter from a psionic race with the psionic feats taken as normal feats.

The fighter is still weaker although, IHMO.

 

[Scion]

Figured I might as well go back to this one for no apparent reason

Advantages the fighter has over the psychic warrior:
1) +1 hp / level.

Vigor helps. Self healing helps (through just healing them or transference).

2) Doesn't need a good wisdom. A good wisdom helps, of course, but cloaks of resistance are cheap, and a fighter gets so many feats that taking Iron Will is not a big deal.

A good wisdom is just too good to pass up. A +4 wisdom item gives you +2 to your will save and +2 to some very useful skills. Along with it being more difficult to be knocked senseless from wisdom loss.

So while the fighter doesnt need it as much as the psychic warrior, they both get incredible benefits out of it (the psychic warrior gets more).

3) Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization. Always active, all the time.

Mostly pretty weak as well. Every little bit helps, but it is only a little bit. Some of these can be simulated by other feats as well. But then I see no reason why weapon specialization was taken away from the psychic warrior.

4) Two attacks per round, two levels before the psywar gets them.

Claws of the beast. Level 1 power. 1hour/level duration. Looks like the psychic warrior gets 2 attacks at first level (neither is offhand, no twf penalties)

5) Three attacks per round, four levels before the psywar gets them.
6) Four attacks per round, an infinite number of levels before the psywar gets them.

Bite of the wolf and form of doom Form of doom allows for a great deal of attacks (it adds four itself, and you can use other attacks with it).

7) A good attack bonus that is always active, all the time.

Yep, true But then the psychic warrior builds seem to like useing greater psionic weapon now and then.. for one big hit every once in awhile. Or a touch attack.