Psychic Warrior vs. Fighter

[ruleslawyer]

Heh, the barbarian was made for damage. Not much else. But at higher levels you'll be laughing at him when he gets charmed/dominated and you're fine with personal mind blank on you.

And here we have it. Psychic warriors have a gigantic advantage over fighters: They can be both specialists (thus stacking up against classes like the barbarian in power) and generalists, thus duplicating the flexibility of a feat-heavy fighter.

In general, I tend to agree with Thanee that classes with powers outshine classes like the fighter at high levels; the fighter REALLY loses out due to his lack of exclusive high-level class abilities, but that's another topic. The PW in particular, however, seems to me an example of how to do the fighter just plain better. Take a look at the side-by-side:

HP:
PW gets d8, fighter d10
BUT, PW can buff his hp using spells, an option that the fighter has to spend actual money on. Moreover, the difference here is 1 hp/level, which IMX hardly breaks the bank.

Skills:
Nothing to speak of on either count, EXCEPT that the PW actually gains serious benefits by using his skills (notably Autohypnosis, Concentration, and Jump). A human fighter who wants the Expertise feat tree (Int 13+) is going to have a LOT of wasted skill points; a PW in the same position can dump points into the aforementioned skills and get real value out of them.

Feats:
PW gets 8 bonus, fighter gets 11 bonus
HOWEVER, PW gets feats at both 1st and 2nd level, thus matching the fighter in feat tree acquisition at low levels, AND, PW gets access to fighter AND psionic feats, which IMHO are just plain better than regular feats even when the psionic focus requirement is taken into account.

Ultimately, the tradeoff here is 1 hp/level and either a single extra feat tree or a tactical feat in exchange for six levels of powers, including Expansion as early as 1st level and Psionic Lion's Charge soon after, both of which instantly trump the fighter's combat options and battlefield control ability.

The only major asset that the fighter enjoys after all this is BAB. However, the nice thing about BAB is that you can take PrCs to make it up! All the PW needs to do is take Illithid Slayer, which has the advantages of shoring up BAB AND Will save as well as providing some nifty abilities (mainly the Cerebral Immunity ability, which does take 9 levels to get, but there's good stuff along the way too!).

In short, I think the PW is slightly more "advanced" than the fighter, requiring significant character optimization and tactical energy to play effectively, but the payoff is far higher than with the fighter.

[Edit: That said, PsyWarr2/Ftr2/Warmind 10 might be the toughest build; at the cost of 1 point of BAB, 3 hit points, and 4 bonus feats, you get a good Reflex save, +4 insight(!) bonuses to Str, Con, and AC, DR 3/-, an excellent suite of psywarr powers, and some neat tactical options. Throw in some barbarian levels and Extra Rage, and you have a combatant who can inflict MAJOR hurt in 3-4 combats per day.]

 

[Teslacoil1138]

Yep, I currently have a 9 PsyWar/10 Illithid Slayer (half-giant), and he wipes the floor with every other melee character I've ever made. Ever.

 

[Darklone]

Ruleslawyer: One minor nitpick: Multistat dependency for the Psywarrior (High wisdom).

 

[the Jester]

[Edit: That said, PsyWarr2/Ftr2/Warmind 10 might be the toughest build; at the cost of 1 point of BAB, 3 hit points, and 4 bonus feats, you get a good Reflex save, +4 insight(!) bonuses to Str, Con, and AC, DR 3/-, an excellent suite of psywarr powers, and some neat tactical options. Throw in some barbarian levels and Extra Rage, and you have a combatant who can inflict MAJOR hurt in 3-4 combats per day.]

There's actually a new pc coming into my epic game who'll be playing a fighter 2/barb 4/psywar 2/warmind 10 or something like that (he posts here as Brain). It'll be interesting to see how it works out.

 

[Brain]

Yep, my character for The Jester's epic game is going to be:
Psychic Warrior 2 / Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Warmind 10
He'll wield a great club and use Three Mountains (weapon style from CW) and Shock Trooper (tactical feat from CW) to do some neat stuff, hopefully. I have more details but didn't want to go into detail unless others requested it.

Should be fun roleplaying wise too, he's a tribal warrior from a small island. I'm basing him on some Pacific Islanders with which I played rugby.

 

[Spatula]

I think fighter is better than pw, with the feat wild talent it gives the fighter acess to all cool pw feats

True, but the fighter does not have Concentration as a class skill, which really limits how much use he can can get from the psionic feats (since those feats depend on making DC 20 Concentration checks).

<munchkin fighter snipped>

pw can take that i dont think so at least not at the same level level bases

Well, let's take those same stats and make a psychic warrior out of them:

Human Psywar 11
STR 18 +4 (gloves +2)
DEX 16 +3
CON 16 +3
INT 10 +0
WIS 22 +6 (periapt +3)
CHA 8 -1

Avg HP 98 (vs 109 for Fighter)
Base AC 23 (mithril full plate +2, same as Fighter)
Fort +10, Refl +6, Will +9 (vs Fort +11, Will +3 for Fighter)
Speed 20, 30 when focused (vs 20 for Fighter)

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Psionic Weapon*, Weapon Focus, Psionic Body*, Psionic Meditation*, Narrow Mind*, Greater Psionic Weapon*, Speed of Thought*, Quicken Power

Powers (68 PP)
1: Force Screen (min/lvl), Offensive Precognition (min/lvl, +swift), Offensive Prescience (min/lvl, +swift), Vigor (min/lvl)
2: Animal Affinity (min/lvl), Hustle (swift), Psionic Lion’s Charge (swift)
3: Greater Concealing Amporpha (rnd/lvl), Hostile Empathic Transfer, Psionic Keen Edge (10 min/lvl)
4: Inertial Barrier (10 min/lvl)

Offensive Precognition & Prescience can be augmented to manifest as swift (free) actions. Hustle and Lion’s Charge are automatically swift actions. The other powers of lvl 1-3 can be quickened with the Quicken Power feat, although doing so expends the psywar’s focus (he regains his focus with a roll of 2+, but that requires a move action, and you only get 1 swift action each round).

Inertial Barrier and Keen Edge both last almost 2 hours, so you don’t need to worry about manifesting those in combat.

Greatsword +2
Attack Bonus: +8 base +4 strength +1 weapon focus +2 weapon +4 precog = +29/+14
Damage: 2d6 base +6 strength +2 weapon +5 prescience +4d6 psi weapon on first attack = 6d6+13 / 2d6+13 (17-20/x2), can power attack for double effect

In an ambush situation where powers have to be quickened/augmented to swift actions, the attack bonus is reduced to +17/+12, and the damage bonus is reduced to +11.

The psywar can also do up to 90 pts of damage with a touch attack (bonus to hit: +16), or do 50 pts of damage in a 20 ft radius burst, with Hostile Empathic Transfer (depending on how wounded he is).

If the psywar knows a fight is coming he can do the following:
* Vigor, 11 pts (+55 temporary HP, new HP 143)
* Animal Affinity: Con, 3 pts (CON 20, new HP 175, new Fort +12, can’t fail regain focus skill check)
* Inertial Barrier, 7 pts (DR 5/-)
* Keen Edge, 5 pts (double crit range)
* Force Screen, 1 pt (+4 AC, new base AC 27)
* Offensive Precognition, 10 pts (+4 to hit)
* Offensive Prescience, 10 pts (+5 to damage)
And still have 21 PP left over for Hustle, Psionic Lion’s Charge, Concealing Amorpha, etc.

If caught off-guard, the psywar can manifest one quickened/swift each round and power himself up during the course of the fight, although he won’t be as effective as if he had time to prepare.

In either case, the psywar will be fighting with FAR more hit points than the fighter, will have Damage Reduction 5/-, will have a better AC, can charge and still make a full attack, and can take a move action and still make a full attack. The fighter (especially a munchkin fighter like your example) will have a better attack bonus and do more damage over time. That’s the tradeoff. The psywar is far more flexible than the fighter.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Ruleslawyer: One minor nitpick: Multistat dependency for the Psywarrior (High wisdom).

Sorta true, Darklone, except for two interrelated things:

1) The psywarr doesn't need a Wisdom score higher than 10 + 1/3 to 1/2 class level. All of his good powers are buffs, meaning that save DC is irrelevant, so any higher Wisdom score is wasted. That's easily achievable with a starting Wis of 12 and no level-based increases, which isn't very expensive unless you play with 25 point buy or lower.

[Incidentally, Brain: the war mind is also fine with a low manifester level for a similar reason: He doesn't ever need to breach PR, so the only assets of a high manifester level are duration and protection from dispelling. The latter can easily be resolved by a ring of counterspells or a ring of spell turning.]

2) Although it may be non-obvious, the fighter actually needs a high Wisdom to survive. In fact, due to the fact that a fighter has no mental protection whatsoever, a decent Wisdom is critical to the fighter if he doesn't want to blow each and every Will save. Unlike the psywarr, a fighter doesn't get defense buffs against mind-affecting effects, and has a harder time qualifying for classes like illithid slayer, which provide powerful mental defenses. Thus, a fighter is likely to need a Wis score roughly parallel to the 10 + 1/3 to 1/2 class level figure suggested above.

If I were creating an optimized fighter using 28 point buy, I might go for this:

Str 14
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 12
Cha 8

Why the flat scores? Well, the fighter's entire advantage is having the bonus feats necessary to pick up multiple combat trees. In order to do that, I need a high Dex (Dodge, etc.) and high Int (Expertise) in addition to high Str and Con. I could go with this:

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8

Of course, I can't take the Expertise tree now, can I? But still. However, a psywarr can take either of these stat arrays and do perfectly! In fact, a psywarr is likely to have less downside from taking the second stat array because he's not going to hit every feat tree anyway, so he might as well ignore Expertise/Improved Trip.

Or I could go with this:

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 8

OK, so this is a stat array that the fighter could take and the psywarr couldn't afford. However, all this gives the fighter is the opportunity to take Improved Trip in exchange for a +1 to Will saves. That's probably a fair trade for the fighter, but it doesn't really tip the scales.

 

[RigaMortus]

By the time the PW "powers up", the Fighter will have killed (or severly hurt) all the enemies in the area. I guess it's good if you have rounds of time to waste, like you see your enemy and have time to set up an ambush, but how often does that happen? Not very often in our games. At most we'll get a surprise round before the enemy spots us...

 

[Teslacoil1138]

How do you figure that? The PsyWar can manifest at least 2 powers a round or 1 swift power and 1 full round's worth of actions per round. If set up correctly, he can get off 3 powers a round using Schism. It doesn't take long at all to buff up a PsyWar, and in most cases he will only waste 1 round manifesting schism and gaining psionic focus to use with his psionic feats. After that 1st round he's better than a fighter. Also the fighter doesn't have the advantage of psionic lion's charge or hustle. A charge followed by a full attack can be absolutely devastating, especially if the enemy is using archers or spellcasters.

Methinks that if your party's fighter can single handedly take out/severly injure the bad guys in the 1st round, you're not fighting things suited for your level... I could be wrong though

 

[Thanee]

Schism and Quicken are two of the completely broken concepts in the XPH.

How they could incorporate something like this in a 3.5 (where stuff like that has deliberately been removed in the transition from 3.0 for spellcasters (i.e. and especially Haste)) rulebook is beyond me (not as far as how they could not fix the horrible Dispel Psionics , but at least close).

If you remove Schism, Quicken and probably also Hustle (or change it to +30' base move instead of the extra action), things turn out a lot more equal here, I'm sure.

Bye
Thanee