Psychic Warrior vs. Fighter

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

1) The psywarr doesn't need a Wisdom score higher than 10 + 1/3 to 1/2 class level. All of his good powers are buffs, meaning that save DC is irrelevant, so any higher Wisdom score is wasted. That's easily achievable with a starting Wis of 12 and no level-based increases, which isn't very expensive unless you play with 25 point buy or lower.

Ew... max Wisdom 12? So he can only manifest his powers because of a magic item?

 

[Scion]

Yes, because it violates the core rules, since Quicken cannot be applied spontaneously.

That is a problem with the base rules, making psions change to work with a rule that is dumb isnt useful.

And Schism is just plain broken. Not as bad as 3.0 Haste, mind you, but bad enough.

Haste wasnt broken and schism is 'much' less useful.

Schism and Quicken are the core of this problem, not the buffs, which are fine by themselves, since they do not have superlong durations anymore as in 3.0 and you need to "waste" actions on getting them up.

So you dont like being able to put up short term buffs quickly and you dont like long term buffs.

Effectively, you simply hate buffing spells and feel that they should never be used. Since the only other alternative is that you like the attackers to have such massive advantages over defenders that there is no real chance. Further destroying the CR system and forcing people to use certain narrow tactics.

Something is seriously wrong there, it sounds like you'd be happier if there just werent any buffs in the game.

 

[silverblade]

The main reason I started this thread was to help me make my mind up about playing a certain character concept. I wanted a character that could deal massive amounts of damage at the beginning of the fight, serioulsly injuring or taking down a major threat or a couple of mooks. It's possible to do this with sneak attack, but awfully hard to pull off. I was thinking of a fighter with WS and power attack, but it doesn't work as well as I'd like. I believe I've decide to go with pshychic warrior. With greater psionic weapon, hustle, and improved initiative, it looks more viable than any other options I've seen. Thanks for all the input ENworlders.

 

[kigmatzomat]

1) The psywarr doesn't need a Wisdom score higher than 10 + 1/3 to 1/2 class level. All of his good powers are buffs, meaning that save DC is irrelevant, so any higher Wisdom score is wasted. That's easily achievable with a starting Wis of 12 and no level-based increases, which isn't very expensive unless you play with 25 point buy or lower.

So.... With a starting wis of 12 and no level-based increases you're restricting yourself to 2nd level powers except when wearing a wis-buff item? Seems PW suffers a bit fromthe multiple prime stat problems.

I agree with the 10+ (1/3 to 1/2 CL) formula, tho'.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

So.... With a starting wis of 12 and no level-based increases you're restricting yourself to 2nd level powers except when wearing a wis-buff item? Seems PW suffers a bit fromthe multiple prime stat problems.

I agree with the 10+ (1/3 to 1/2 CL) formula, tho'.

A bit, yes. But their Wis requirements are not all that different from a Paladin or Ranger. It is nice to have a high Wis, but a starting 12 and a stat item are quite adequate to access all your primary class abilities.

 

[ForceUser]

...the PW outshines the fighter both in flexibility and raw damage potential...

I disagree. As it turns out, no matter how you shake it, fighters are the best fighters. Psychic warriors are cool, but they aren't dishing the damage in 3.5 that a fighter is capable of. Build me a 16th-level psychic warrior that matches this in pure combat prowess:

28-point buy dwarf fighter 16: HD 16d10+96; hp 189; Init +3; Spd 20 ft., fly 40 ft.; AC 25, touch 9, flat-footed 25; Base Atk +16; Grp +23; Atk +3 giantbane falchion of frost +28 melee (2d4+17 and 1d6 cold, 15/x2 crit); Full Atk +3 giantbane falchion of frost +28/+23/+18/+13 melee (2d4+17 and 1d6 cold, 15/x2 crit); SA resounding blow (Will DC 19); SQ damage reduction 3/-, dwarf traits; AL CG; SV Fort +18, Ref +7, Will +11; Str 24, Dex 8, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 12.

Skill and Feats: Craft (stonemasonry) +19, Intimidate +20; Power Attack, Weapon Focus (falchion), Cleave, Improved Toughness, Weapon Specialization (falchion), Great Cleave, Resounding Blow, Improved Critical (falchion), Greater Weapon Focus (falchion), Close Quarters Fighting, Greater Weapon Specialization (falchion), Blind-Fight, Iron Will, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun.

Possessions: +3 giantbane falchion of frost, +4 dwarven full plate, boots of flying, amulet of natural armor +2, ring of protection +2, +3 cloak of resistance, +4 girdle of giant strength, +4 vest of endurance, bracers of shielding (shield 3/day).

If this guy power attacks for 5, he deals 2d4+27 on a normal hit and 4d4+54 on a crit. He crits 30% of the time with the falchion. If he power attacks for 10, which is acceptable when fighting low-AC monsters, he deals 2d4+37 and 4d4+74 on a crit. Show me a 16th-level psychic warrior that can top this damage potential. I will publicly eat crow if you can do so with the same point-buy and using only the sources I used (WOTC 3.5 hardbacks).

 

[Piratecat]

Forceuser, I assume it's fine to create one with all its powers active?

I ask because it's fairly easy to use the same basic dwarvish PC (only a psiwarrior) and get:

+6 insight to attack
+7 insight to damage
Damage bonuses +10d6 acid, +4d6 psionic, + poison (1d8 con/1d8 con), +1d6 energy on a falchion hit
Big strength boosts
4 bonus tentacle attacks
Reflected damage every round

I don't have time to do the stat block (and thus I won't pretent to try and meet your challenge), but at first glance it looks like a psi warrior can pump out a lot of damage at the beginning of the fight, then lag somewhat behind the fighter.

If anyone wants to do the math, I'm assuming the powers:

Expansion
Precognition, Offensive
Prescience, Offensive

Animal Affinity
Body Purification
Dissolving Weapon
Hustle
Psionic Lion's Charge
Strength of my Enemy

Empathic Feedback
Empathic Transfer, Hostile
Keen Edge, Psionic

Truevenom Weapon
Weapon of Energy

Psychofeedback

Form of Doom

 

[Scion]

for a few seconds that guy is incredibly tough.. and then he realizes just how many pp he spent to do so

It would be interesting to see that guy all stated up, and then to see if he could actually put all of those up at once without running out of duration.

 

[Teslacoil1138]

I disagree. As it turns out, no matter how you shake it, fighters are the best fighters. Psychic warriors are cool, but they aren't dishing the damage in 3.5 that a fighter is capable of. Build me a 16th-level psychic warrior that matches this in pure combat prowess:

If this guy power attacks for 5, he deals 2d4+27 on a normal hit and 4d4+54 on a crit. He crits 30% of the time with the falchion. If he power attacks for 10, which is acceptable when fighting low-AC monsters, he deals 2d4+37 and 4d4+74 on a crit. Show me a 16th-level psychic warrior that can top this damage potential. I will publicly eat crow if you can do so with the same point-buy and using only the sources I used (WOTC 3.5 hardbacks).

*Ahem* Unfortunately for the fighter there's more to fighting than dealing damage. There's also the matter of healing the damage you take, protecting yourself from mind-effects, and the like.

Now, I don't see why you're even trying to compare a 16th level fighter to a 16th level psychic warrior. But fine. Let's say he's a dwarf and has the same strength and the same equipment as your dwarf, and also has power attack and improved critical. You can swap 4 points of Cha for 2 pts of Wis, which means the PsyWar has access to 4th level powers.

Prepare to eat crow...

With just 1 power (augmented expansion), the PsyWar automatically increases his damage potential, doing 3d6+16 w/o power attack. Power attack of 5 means 3d6+26, power attack 10 means 3d6+36 and 6d6+72 on a crit.

Every turn he can manifest Hustle (swift action), then gain psionic focus with that move action. Expending that psionic focus means an extra 4d6 damage to one attack with Greater Psi Weapon.

If he takes a turn, he can manifest immovability (DR 15/-) as well as an augmented offensive prescience (+7 insight to damage, swift action).

Another turn and he can manifest an augmented vigor (80 temporary HP) and an augmented offensive precognition (+6 insight to attacks).

After a few turns of combat he can heal himself with an augmented body adjustment for 7d12 points of healing. And he can keep using vigor and body adjustment as long as he has power points left.

 

[ForceUser]

Teslacoil1138: While I admit that's impressive, you're talking about a guy who has to spend four rounds of combat buffing to achieve all of that. Meanwhile, the fighter is simply whacking away every round. It's true that fighters are more group-dependant than psychic warriors and not as versatile, but my challenge is not about versatility (an obvious psychic warrior forte) but sheer damage potential over the course of a fight (the fighter's forte, and the point of yours which I am refuting.) Rounds spent buffing are rounds spent not dealing damage.

In my experience, the guy who has to spend fighting time buffing so he can kick butt is not as big a butt-kicker as the guy who just kicks butt all day long (the fighter).

I bow before your rules expertise, all the same. I don't know jack about psychic warriors.

PC: Sure, go nuts.