Question for the board - Deities and Domains

[Greenfield]

Well, I appreciate you being aware of your leanings and taking steps to mitigate them. I certainly don't want to say anything that's going to make you doubt a good balance, if you've found one.

That said...

There's a wide continuum between "not nice" and "doormat." It's possible to be nice and still not put up with everyone's crap.

It's a tough balance for most of us, I think. But there's wiggle room.

Agreed.

When it comes to doing the "right thing" involving people, I'm more or less guessing. Most people have a pretty good idea what will or won't fly, socially. I'm not most people. I have to take a calculated guess, and I occasionally guess wrong.

As a precaution, I tend to err on the side of, well, inaction. I wait to see what the crowd is doing. Odd, I'm a Type A personality who ends up following along. Go figure.

Game rules, in black and white, I can deal with. Social rules, ever in flux, are another matter. Maybe that's why I'm a "rules guy".

One possibility I have to consider, in this case, is that my description of this player, here in the forums, isn't actually a fair one. My bias may be showing through. (I have a hard time building positive emotional associations with other people. Negative ones come all too easily. )

So I'll do what I often do: Wait to see what others think and feel, rather than just force my (admittedly faulty) judgment on the world.

 

[Greenfield]

Allow.

From your post, it doesn't sound to me that you have been using this deity Taiia in your current campaign setting, right? So this will be the first time she appears in your game... then why do you even care if the PC is "canon" or not?

I would understand if you had used it already as written in that book, and you wanted to keep consistency. Then there may be good reasons to disallow (but not necessarily) the exceptional character.

But if you haven't used it, and you are willing to add a whole new religion to your fantasy world, it doesn't have to be exactly as written. Anyway, even in that book, Taiia is just an example. You could simply come up with your own Taiia with whatever variations you wish.

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As for scribing scrolls, IIRC those domain spells definitely count as "divine" even if they are "stolen" from the Wizard list. I seem to remember that there were in fact discussion ~10 years ago that those scrolls would normally be usable only by clerics with the same domain (or another domain granting the same spells), exactly because other clerics don't have them in their list while wizards can only use arcane scrolls. That's the RAW, but you're free to handle it differently.​

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Our friend was saying that his character could Scribe *ANY* arcane spell he could get a source on.

He said that he could scribe from another scroll, for example. I pointed out that he'd end up burning the source scroll in creating the new one, if it was to be allowed at all. The rules say it has to be a spell the caster has prepared, and that scribing it uses that prepared slot.

Next he'll try to argue that he could prepare Scrolls from a spell book, even if he can't actually prepare the spell himself.

I can see where he's trying to get to, and I don't expect him to stop trying any time soon. I just have to be the bad guy, keep an eye out for him trying to slip one through, and keep saying "No".

As for your "Allow" vote: Just to make sure I understand: He wants to bring a deity in that doesn't fit the game world (we're pseudo-historical, so Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Celtic, Norse etc all fit. Deities out of non-historical settings don't.)

Further the deity he wants has two separate Domain lists, one for each aspect, and he wants to pick one from each list.

The fact that the deity has no foundation or history in our world is a reason to disallow, as I see it. Not sure how you got to your view that that's a reason to allow it.

And allowing him to play fast and loose with the rules for the use of this deity, just because the "by the book" rules haven't been used before? To me, that's a good reason to enforce the "by the book' rules.

But then, I'm pretty much a "rules guy". A written rule may or may not be right in every situation, but it tends to be consistent and inarguable. It's a standard every player has equal access to, that they (and the DM) can count on being in place when making plans.

(There are few things that tick me off more in a game than when I come up with a tactic, based on the rules, and the DM decides to let me commit to it, then shoots me down because he's decided he doesn't like that rule.)

 

[Li Shenron]

As for your "Allow" vote: Just to make sure I understand: He wants to bring a deity in that doesn't fit the game world (we're pseudo-historical, so Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Celtic, Norse etc all fit. Deities out of non-historical settings don't.)

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The fact that the deity has no foundation or history in our world is a reason to disallow, as I see it. Not sure how you got to your view that that's a reason to allow it.

No, I was under the assumption that you were playing in a typical vanilla or custom setting with fantasy pantheons, and that for you the idea of adding new deities to the setting every now and then was generally fine. In which case, I saw only a possible problem with consistency if Taiia already had a history in your game and you player's concept conflicted with that.

But if you already know that it doesn't fit, why are you even doubtful? Of course in this case the answer is disallow. Even more so if you have chosen to play a pseudo-historical setting (I don't how I missed that info), which is a great idea by the way. But even if you had chosen a totally fantasy setting like Forgotten Realms, but had decided that the pantheons should be canon.

 

[Greenfield]

We allowed the deity. His character is from the Canary Islands, and the fact is that there are no official sources for any of the African religions.

The question was never really about the deity. The question was, do we allow him to select a non-cannon deity, *AND* then not follow the guidelines that come with it?

The write up in Deities and Demigods says that, while the deity is both creation and destruction, the two aspects are worshiped separately by the religious sects, and thus have two different Domain lists.

The player wants his character to be able to select from both lists, claiming that she (male player, female character) worships both aspects at once. (Unlike every other Cleric of that deity.)

My own thought is, if you want to bring in something that's questionable, you ought to at least follow the rules that come with it.

This is, by the way, academic at this point. I referred the player to some Wikipedia entries on African religions and he selected a deity from that source. He also decided not to try and twist things, domain wise.

The Wikipedia source included, for many of the religions included, specific things the various deities were responsible for, reading almost like a domain list. Very helpful in our situation.

 

[Grogg of the North]

So the cleric is an outsider in the realm you're in (Greece/Italy) and an outsider in her own religion? Sounds like she got sent on missionary work to just get her out of the temple. Or someone higher up in the temple figured that the Romans would take care of her for him.

 

[Greenfield]

Oh, it's worse than that.

She's a human variant race from Stormwrack, Aventi. She gets a swim speed and can breath under water, yet the player keeps insisting that she's Human (as in, still gets bonus feats and skills.) We correct him on that every time, showing him the book, yet he persists. That's going to be a problem.

http://dndtools.eu/races/stormwrack--87/aventi--43/

In character, she tries to disguise herself as a man, but as far as I know has exactly zero ranks in Disguise and a Charisma of 10. Recently she signed on as a deck hand on a ship, rather than pay passage. (Passage was paid by employer, but she wanted it in cash, being 1st/2nd level when money is tight.) I advised that this could be a problem, as she'd be a woman bunking with male sailors who don't get ashore all that often. Player insisted that she's disguised as a man, so nobody would know. There are some things you can't disguise all that easily in tight sleeping quarters, and certainly not as a "gimmie" (i.e. no dice roll.)

She also insists that she isn't a Cleric (in character), while she offers magical healing and throws Bless spells. It's an attention grabbing thing, that when someone calls for the Cleric, all conversation is halted while she corrects them, insisting that she isn't a Cleric.

 

[Grogg of the North]

May not be exactly relevant but, depending on how superstitious or gender equal your world is, the crew may not want a woman on board since it's bad luck.

Also, there is some historical evidence for pirates having their own laws that forbid woman on board.

 

[SunnyImposter]

I went wacky looking for this deity until I realized her name is "Taiia" (two I's) and found her located on p. 203 of the 3.5 Deities & Demigods text.

As written, Taiia is meant to exist in a monotheistic campaign world, and as such has a 'light' and 'dark' side. Y9our player wants to walk the line between, assuming there is one, and get benefits from both.

RP-wise, I'm down with a Gray Jedi. I'd likely suggest he be True Neutral in alignment.

Mechanics-wise, it sounds like he wants to somehow (maybe even incorrectly?) abuse that Magic domain. I mean, he could just pay lip service to Taiia and not choose a deity to get the Magic and War domains.

If you (as DM) want to have him be the centre of some potential religious upheaval (by having various sects interact with him), I say giv'er.

One of the players at our table wants to run a Cleric of Talia, a deity from Deities and Demigods. As far as I can tell, the deity is purely a gaming fantasy construct, with no historical basis in any culture.

The deity is described as being all encompassing. Her followers swear that she is the only deity, that no others exist and that all other Clerics are false.

She has two aspects: She is the creator, the life giver, the sun. She is also the darkness, death and destruction. There are two separate Domain lists for her, one for each aspect.

The book says that generally her Clerics follow a particular Sect, and that while the sects may cooperate at times, each chooses either the Creator aspect or the Destroyer aspect.

The player wants to have his character worship both, and wants to claim one domain from each list. He said he never knew about the separation, the way the sects choose one aspect ot the other.

He also notes that the book says they "generally" choose such a sect. He wants his character to be the exception.

The domains he wants are War and Magic. The War domain gives his character a martial weapon proficiency and Weapon Focus in Battle Axe, and the Magic Domain lets him use Arcane items. (He was hinting that his character should be able to Scribe arcane scrolls one he gets the Scribe feat, even though he can[t actually prepare any Arcane spells, other than those granted by his Domain. )

Arguments pro and con:

Pro: It does say "generally", not "must".
Con: That "generally" applies to following an organized sect, not the worship of just one aspect. The domain lists are separated for a reason.

What would you say: Allow or disallow?

(Note: My vote is one and only one of eight at the table, and is by no means final).

I personally am doing a campaign where Taiia is the only goddess/god that actually spends time on my world, and is trying to take down other gods/goddess so she can become the one true goddess. In this story I have people who are walking on her side of the sun, creator etc. and they preach the word of Taiia as the one true goddess and they resurrect temples of worship all over the world and are the ones that follow her for the good. I also have the people who are on the side of destruction, and they tear down other gods' temples and statues and yell from the roof tops that Taiia is the only true god and all who do not follow her will feel her wrath. Then there are also the neutral who follow her for all that she is, these are usually the people who are closest to her, and know her in all her beauty and might. These are the fully true believers that will do anything and everything she wants without fail. In my campaign this does mean I make a few changes as her stuff does state that she is usually more Lawful Good. I think that allowing your players to have the best of both of her is great. But as some other people said she was really meant to be used in a monotheistic world play, and if she wasn't something you were intending on having in your campaign it maybe something to really think about how she would fit if this player is going to have her to worship. If she doesn't fit then she doesn't fit and they will have to think of something else. But if you can find a way to make her fit great let them play the way they want and worship her the way they want.