D&D 5E [+] Questions for zero character death players and DMs…

[EzekielRaiden]

Very well said!

It made me think... among those who claim "I can't get invested unless I know death is an option", would you play a game where, should your PC die, you will not have an option to create another PC in the same campaign and will have to wait until next campaign to play again with the same group?

Thank you.

And yeah, that's sort of where I'm at with a lot of this. Having to totally "start over" with a new character and never actually addressing any of the open questions left behind by the dead one feels...hollow to me. It pulls me away from the experience and thrusts in my face "remember this is ONLY a spreadsheet and a game piece, NOTHING else, and we can tear up the spreadsheet and knock over the game piece at ANY time."

 

[Charlaquin]

Thank you.

And yeah, that's sort of where I'm at with a lot of this. Having to totally "start over" with a new character and never actually addressing any of the open questions left behind by the dead one feels...hollow to me. It pulls me away from the experience and thrusts in my face "remember this is ONLY a spreadsheet and a game piece, NOTHING else, and we can tear up the spreadsheet and knock over the game piece at ANY time."

Interesting. To me the idea that my character can only die if I want them to us what pulls me from the experience and thrusts in my face that the character is just an avatar in a fantasy constructed for the sole purpose of escapism, and that my decisions don’t really matter because they’ll never lead to outcomes that don’t serve that escapist objective.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Interesting. To me the idea that my character can only die if I want them to us what pulls me from the experience and thrusts in my face that the character is just an avatar in a fantasy constructed for the sole purpose of escapism, and that my decisions don’t really matter because they’ll never lead to outcomes that don’t serve that escapist objective.

Interesting. I almost feel the opposite about it. If my character can be lost instantly due to fickle dice rolls I feel like I'm just playing an elaborate boardgame instead of a collective storytelling experience.

 

[Panzeh]

Interesting. I almost feel the opposite about it. If my character can be lost instantly due to fickle dice rolls I feel like I'm just playing an elaborate boardgame instead of a collective storytelling experience.

Yeah it kinda makes me treat the character more like the 371st Rifle division in a game where i throw those things away like chips- there's not much personality, i just end up playing purely tactically.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Interesting. To me the idea that my character can only die if I want them to us what pulls me from the experience and thrusts in my face that the character is just an avatar in a fantasy constructed for the sole purpose of escapism, and that my decisions don’t really matter because they’ll never lead to outcomes that don’t serve that escapist objective.

I mean...that is in fact what it is. We are escaping to something else. By recognizing that and leveraging it, we can do cool things.

Plus, it's absolutely not true that low- or no-death games "never lead to outcomes that don't serve that escapist objective," and especially not true that "[your] decisions don't really matter." As with most of these conversations, there's a strong conflation here between "the things I do must have consequences I cannot just immediately wish away" and "the one and only consequence that ever matters is death."

Like...for real, if death is the one and only thing that makes choices ever matter, that makes the vast majority of actual choices, some of them incredibly poignant and affecting, totally irrelevant. Choosing love over work doesn't decide if you live or die, so that choice "doesn't matter." Choosing faith over reason, or vice versa, rarely affects your lifespan in more than a statistical way, so it's totally meaningless. Oh, and any choices that result in harm or death of other people? Just as irrelevant. Snubbing your estranged father on his deathbed, vs swallowing your pride and seeing him one last time? Who cares, it's not your own death, it has no meaning, just flip a coin.

The hyperbole used in these conversations gets kind of tedious. There are lots of meaningful choices which are totally orthogonal to whether making them will result in you being alive or dead an hour from now.

 

[Charlaquin]

Interesting. I almost feel the opposite about it. If my character can be lost instantly due to fickle dice rolls I feel like I'm just playing an elaborate boardgame instead of a collective storytelling experience.

Can your character be lost instantly to fickle dice rolls though? The outcomes are the results of whole series of decisions you’ve made. Sure, random chance plays a role, but it is a secondary role to your own decisions. All of your actions are calculated risks (though I suppose maybe less calculated if your DM isn’t forthcoming with important information like DCs and potential consequences; that I could certainly see making deaths feel much more random).

I think it comes down to what we’re looking for from the game. You want to contribute to a narrative that the group constructs together. I want to exercise agency within a fictional space. The possibility of unexpected character death undermines your ability to construct a satisfying narrative, while the impossibility of the same undermines my sense of agency.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Can your character be lost instantly to fickle dice rolls though?

It happened to me in a 4e game. (The character was revived but there was a phase where it looked like he might not. We were only level 3, IIRC.) If it can happen in the game people openly knocked for being too "safe" and having too high initial HP, it can happen anywhere.

(Very specifically we were fighting a solo. I was slightly above 25% HP and thought, as a Paladin, I could take a hit. The solo proceeded to crit on its strongest attack at exactly that moment. I went from over 25% HP to under -50% in a single hit, something all of us, DM included, genuinely thought wasn't possible. Dice were rolled open, this was Roll20, so no trickery involved. By 4e rules, that's literally instant death, no saves.)

The outcomes are the results of whole series of decisions you’ve made. Sure, random chance plays a role, but it is a secondary role to your own decisions.

Not always.

All of your actions are calculated risks (though I suppose maybe less calculated if your DM isn’t forthcoming with important information like DCs and potential consequences; that I could certainly see making deaths feel much more random).

I think it comes down to what we’re looking for from the game. You want to contribute to a narrative that the group constructs together. I want to exercise agency within a fictional space. The possibility of unexpected character death undermines your ability to construct a satisfying narrative, while the impossibility of the same undermines my sense of agency.

I guess I just see it as...you are exercising agency, but some of that agency is at the level of authorship.

And, as noted, I do not ABSOLUTELY prevent deaths. They coincidentally haven't happened yet, but if they did I would put them in. They just would be recoverable one way or another, unless the player didn't want to do that. Maybe they don't find the costs worth the benefit, maybe they want a new character, maybe they like the story impact of the death. But I won't lock a player out of continuing a story solely because one tactical error and incredibly unfortunate dice said so.

Edit: That said, I also wouldn't let my players exploit my goodwill. This is meant as a gesture of respect between them and me, a collaboration to produce the best experience we can. If my "I won't arbitrarily end your story" is exploited to extract maximum advantage, I will become much less friendly about it. Death should always, always be a SERIOUS thing, even if it isn't a permanent thing. It should have consequences and be treated with respect. Will you be willing to pay the price? Will your friends? That's so much more interesting to me than "oh, yeah Bob died last year, it was pretty sad. Then we met Roberta."

 

[Charlaquin]

I mean...that is in fact what it is. We are escaping to something else. By recognizing that and leveraging it, we can do cool things.

I could just as easily have said to you that a game piece is what your D&D character is, and by recognizing and leveraging it, we can do cool things. I chose to express my own perspective rather than trying to undermine yours, out of recognition and respect of the fact that we have different priorities and goals.

Plus, it's absolutely not true that low- or no-death games "never lead to outcomes that don't serve that escapist objective," and especially not true that "[your] decisions don't really matter." As with most of these conversations, there's a strong conflation here between "the things I do must have consequences I cannot just immediately wish away" and "the one and only consequence that ever matters is death."

No, I understand that there can be other consequences than death. But the fact that death is not a possible consequence unless I want it to be indicates a priority towards fantasy and narrative over challenge (referring here to the MDA aesthetics).

Like...for real, if death is the one and only thing that makes choices ever matter, that makes the vast majority of actual choices, some of them incredibly poignant and affecting, totally irrelevant. Choosing love over work doesn't decide if you live or die, so that choice "doesn't matter." Choosing faith over reason, or vice versa, rarely affects your lifespan in more than a statistical way, so it's totally meaningless. Oh, and any choices that result in harm or death of other people? Just as irrelevant. Snubbing your estranged father on his deathbed, vs swallowing your pride and seeing him one last time?

You’re focused on narrative consequences here. I’m talking about gameplay consequences.

Who cares, it's not your own death, it has no meaning, just flip a coin.

I invest time, effort, and creative energy into my characters. That absolutely has meaning to me, and part of the game is staking that investment on my gameplay decisions and risk evaluation.

The hyperbole used in these conversations gets kind of tedious. There are lots of meaningful choices which are totally orthogonal to whether making them will result in you being alive or dead an hour from now.

You’re the one who started with the hyperbole saying the possibility of unexpected character death makes the character ONLY a game piece and NOTHING more. I was mirroring your language, though I avoided the dramatic use of caps.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Can your character be lost instantly to fickle dice rolls though? The outcomes are the results of whole series of decisions you’ve made. Sure, random chance plays a role, but it is a secondary role to your own decisions.

This is the language that makes me feel like the primary function of character death is actually punishment.

Constantly trying to put the blame on the player's 'decisions' and thus implying that their character would be alive if they played better. It's also an incongruous argument in a discussion that usually couches the good part of character death in risk vs reward terms.

The reverse is also true; trying to couch it in terms of 'consequences' when defending a concept that came about in a time when picking up the wrong thing or listening at a door would kill you instantly.

 

[Vaalingrade]

No, I understand that there can be other consequences than death. But the fact that death is not a possible consequence unless I want it to be indicates a priority towards fantasy and narrative over challenge (referring here to the MDA aesthetics).

And there's nothing wrong with that, so kindly stop accenting it with negative connotations.