Quick AoO question

[IceBear]

I think your problem is your assumption that it doesn't matter whose threatened area you're in, just that you're in a threatened area. You suffer a movement AoO for moving within a certain individual's threat range, not for moving within anyone's threat range. Moving around in Y's threat range has no impact on X.

I'll see if I can find the link to Eric's examples to help you.

Edit: Here you go -

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/news...ns&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=20&page=1

IceBear

 

[Bastoche]

Ok, thanks.

 

[jlhorner1974]

Bastoche,

Your situation can never happen.

The reason is because you only get a 5 ft step when you make no other movement during the round. If you say you want to make your 5 ft step, you don't get any other movement for the rest of the round after that, and you are immune to AOOs from movement. If you move more than 5 ft, you don't get a 5 ft step, and you draw AOOs as normal, but if all you do is move the first square is not considered threatened.

Even if you see AOOs as moving within a threatened area or from one threatened area to another (which really isn't the right way to think about it), your logic breaks down because if all you do is move, the square you start in is NOT considered threatened.

I actually require my players to state their intended actions before they make their moves, otherwise, things get weird because of the "if all you do during the round is move, the space you start in is not considered threatened" rule.


Here's an example.

Let's let P be the player, X be orc X and Y be orc Y.

at the begining of the round, they are placed like this:

X _ _ P Y


So now lets say that X just dropped a buddy of P's and P wants to rush over to take out X.

So, now P moves:

X P _ _ Y

Does this movement cause an AOO? The answer is: Maybe. It depends on whether P attacks X or not.

If P does not attack X, then P he meets the condition that all he did was move, so the square he started in is not considered threatened. Therefore, Y does not get an AOO when P leaves his starting square.

If P does attack X, then P does not meet the condition that all he did was move, so the square he starts in IS considered threatened, and he provokes an AOO from Y as he leaves the space he started in, even before he reaches X. This is true even though the square he moves into (the one in the middle) is not threatened.

For a clear diagram of this, see the fourth picture in the link that IceBear posted.

It's a lot easier of the players announce their intentions (how they are moving and what they are doing) before they act, so that AOOs can be taken at the right time.


The PHB describes AOOs conceptually as "moving within or out of a threatened area". This is good flavor, but it clouds the issue of when you get an AOO.

IceBear's link does a pretty good job of explaining these things, but the easiest way to get this AOO thing right is to think of the AOO as being triggered when you leave a square that is threatened. Where you end up doesn't matter. If you try to think of it as moving within a threatened area or that somehow it matters where you end up, then you will get confused.

Notice in all of the examples IceBear linked to, when they explain what specifically triggered the AOO, you'll see that they always mention which square the Bard left that triggered the AOO.

 

[Bastoche]

I haven't read through all of your post since I consider the matter resolved. But you can always trade your 5 foot step in real movement BUT you will suffer the conscequences of not 5 foot steping. My example is correct and in the case of my example, you get an AoO from both orcs if you attack either and only from Y if all you do is move. Not tactically wise, I agree, but fully within the rules.

And not allowing players to change their minds during their turn is unfair IMO because of readied actions. But you can play any way you want. I doesn't bother me at all to correct the outcomes afterwards (taking a 5 foot step and then deciding to move more making void the 5 foot step and provoking an AoO if it's the case or moving first and choosing to attack latter provoking an AoO, etc).

What you seem to have missed though is that my previous point of view never was compatible with the correct rule, and I never intended it otherwise...

 

[jlhorner1974]

By the way, did you check the link at the top of the page IceBear linked to? (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/RoleModels.pdf)

This is a PDF excerpt from a Dragon article that is the clearest explanation of AOOs yet (this is what I based my first post on).

 

[Hypersmurf]

And not allowing players to change their minds during their turn is unfair IMO because of readied actions.

Let's say someone with a 30' move and darkvision is in a dark corridor. They declare a double move up the corridor.

20' up the corridor, though, the DM tells them that they see their friend lying wounded on the floor at the edge of their darkvision, 60' away. Now, that's 80 feet from their starting point - too far away to reach them with a double move. But it's well within the distance of a Run - 120 feet! - from their starting point.

"And I could have Run to get here," the player points out, "so why don't we say that my turn for the round is a Run?"

------

A wizard goes to cast a spell. Unfortunately, this triggers his opponent's Readed action - the fighter executes a partial charge and smacks the wizard for 10 points of damage.

"Make a Concentration check," the DM tells the wizard.

"No, I changed my mind - I'm not going to cast the spell now," the wizard says. "I'm going to 5' step and then cast the spell. His Readied action triggered before I did anything, so I can change my mind. And since I'm moving before I cast, his attack didn't interrupt my spell."

------

IMO, allowing people to change their actions based on Readied actions can cause just as much trouble...

-Hyp.

 

[Bastoche]

Let's say someone with a 30' move and darkvision is in a dark corridor. They declare a double move up the corridor.

20' up the corridor, though, the DM tells them that they see their friend lying wounded on the floor at the edge of their darkvision, 60' away. Now, that's 80 feet from their starting point - too far away to reach them with a double move. But it's well within the distance of a Run - 120 feet! - from their starting point.

"And I could have Run to get here," the player points out, "so why don't we say that my turn for the round is a Run?"

------

A wizard goes to cast a spell. Unfortunately, this triggers his opponent's Readed action - the fighter executes a partial charge and smacks the wizard for 10 points of damage.

"Make a Concentration check," the DM tells the wizard.

"No, I changed my mind - I'm not going to cast the spell now," the wizard says. "I'm going to 5' step and then cast the spell. His Readied action triggered before I did anything, so I can change my mind. And since I'm moving before I cast, his attack didn't interrupt my spell."

------

IMO, allowing people to change their actions based on Readied actions can cause just as much trouble...

-Hyp.

Of course you couldn't change what you already did. I shouldn't have written "change their mind" but rather "modify their course of action". If I intend to 5 foot step and attack but my 5 foot step triggers a readied action that would suggest me to do sometime different than attack, I don't see o problem with not attacking and doing something else, as long as you can make the desired in the rest of the round. In both of your example, it was clear to me that you couldn't change your mind. In the wizard's case, if the mage decided to step back and cast and that the trigger was "when he steps back" I would allow the wizard not to cast. But if the trigger was "when he cast" with or without 5' step he could not change his mind. In other words, you have to make the action that triggered the readied action but any action you wanted to make afterwards may not make sense anymore. Then and only then you could "change your mind" [on what's following in your turn]

For example, changing a move (already made) for a run won't do. but after a move you could make any standard action afterwards (even if you intended to attack but that the course of action suggested you to do otherwise, like drinking a potion for example).

Let's make another example.

I'm 15ft away from an orc. I'm at a high enough level to be confident enought to kill the orc even if I'm low on hit point. I intend to move toward the orc and then attack the orc. I start moving. When I'm in front of the orc, I see a giant around the corner. Instead of keeping on moving toward the orc and attack, I stop and drink the potion I just happened to have in my left hand. That's what I meant with "changing your mind".

 

[Bastoche]

By the way, did you check the link at the top of the page IceBear linked to? (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/RoleModels.pdf)

This is a PDF excerpt from a Dragon article that is the clearest explanation of AOOs yet (this is what I based my first post on).

I understood the rule. Please stop explaining it to me. Thank you.

 

[IceBear]

I'm 15ft away from an orc. I'm at a high enough level to be confident enought to kill the orc even if I'm low on hit point. I intend to move toward the orc and then attack the orc. I start moving. When I'm in front of the orc, I see a giant around the corner. Instead of keeping on moving toward the orc and attack, I stop and drink the potion I just happened to have in my left hand. That's what I meant with "changing your mind".

And suffer an AoO from the orc for drinking a potion in the orc's threatened area

I tend to use the rule mentioned in the DMG for readied actions and not taking them (Wis check DC15) if someone wants to change their mind

IceBear

 

[AuraSeer]

For example, changing a move (already made) for a run won't do. but after a move you could make any standard action afterwards (even if you intended to attack but that the course of action suggested you to do otherwise, like drinking a potion for example).

Right, but you seem to be missing the point slightly. In your earlier post you did allow the hypothetical character to change the type of movement he declared.

If you declare a 5' Step, you are saying that will be your entire movement for the round. This has specific consequences about who gets an AoO on you, and what other actions you can take. You cannot later change your mind and decide that you actually travelled 5' with a Move action, because that would retroactively cause you to suffer more AoOs than you actually got.

A similar example: imagine that you declare a Run down a corridor. Upon moving 20', you pass an open doorway, and an orc inside takes an AoO on you for running. You may choose to stop there in front of the orc if you wish, but you still don't get an attack. You cannot change your mind and call the 20' a regular Move action, because 1) that would not have drawn an AoO at the same point, and 2) it would have allowed you to keep your Dex bonus to AC.

Once you begin a certain type of movement (Move, Run, or Step), you cannot change types, because that would involve changing history.